Thank you so much for sharing your experience. And I'm also sorry that's your experience.
I suppose some of it is the changing landscape - we have been so oversaturated with social media and so many platforms and the monetization of it all that we just don't want to follow/read as many people which means less people find us I guess. It's a different thing than it was a few years ago and a few years before that. (Or maybe I have just been doing this too long!!)
Recommendations do seem to be one of the keys of getting noticed here ... although I also wonder if that will remain true. I notice that people often automatically hit that "subscribe" button to recommendations when they've subscribed to someone new then realize they are getting a bunch of email they don't want and unsubscribe.
Thank you for your comment. And for subscribing - believe me I totally get not being able to pay for it. None of us can pay for everyone we want to read and I'm really not sure how to reconcile that as a writer but I don't blame anyone else for it!!
I think you're right that although what I seemed to focus on here was the "make more money, do Substack right" stuff, it's really the whole Notes thing entirely even without that that doesn't feel good. I stopped using Twitter within its first couple of years of existence and was actually really surprised when I recently started hearing that writers use it a lot. I've never liked Facebook although found for a while it was a "necessary evil" for promoting work. I guess this is the crux of the problem for me - the same tools that allow me to spread my work to more people are the ones that have a built-in system that doesn't feel good to me.
My hope is that I can get more and more creative, truer to myself and somehow this will all work out financially. We'll see. Keep breaking those rules!!
I've been told that if you use the right (larger, ergonomic) hooks and thicker yarn, it isn't so bad for aching hands. Lighter colored yarn is key for the eyes.
The kids I know (meaning the twenty somethings) all use WhatsApp and Discord for their groups instead of Facebook groups ... I don't know if that's useful at all but maybe worth looking into for the writers group. Although I suppose that's just for the existing group, not promoting it. Regardless, it sounds like a great group - how did you start doing that?
Thanks for sharing it - I love these stories!! I also love the attitude that you’ve been working with technology long enough to know you can learn it. It’s true - if I am motivated enough for the benefits of the platform then I can learn. Usually when I don’t it’s lack of interest.
Congrats to your former writers!! Decades ago I had been doing a zine for incarcerated adults and when I discontinued it, I did my best to match people on the inside with writing mentors on the outside. I was young but one of the pairs ended up getting locally published and it was so good for their self esteem. I am sure there are others whose trajectories you don’t even know how you’ve helped … teaching is like that, sometimes you don’t know your impact til years later if at all. We are all making our ripples. ❤️
I used to work with teens a lot and have been thinking lately this is something I want to do again. I haven’t figured out in exactly what way but your experience has nudged the idea closer to the forefront.
Interesting although for work I’ve had to be very active on some platforms there are others I’ve just never bothered with at all and don’t think about. I really never use YouTube which many people find unbelievable. And I never did get into medium. 🤷🏻♀️ but you’re right - notes really is what is the toughest part for me here and maybe what I need most is to stay out of that section.
And yet many people find me through notes and then they can comment here and really have the richer connections so … 🤷🏻♀️
I do love that we can block and mute. I don’t think substack does a perfect job of giving options (I find that the choices are limited for how to turn down the “noise” for neurodiversity concerns for example) but overall yes I agree that we can shape our experience here to a large extent.
The conundrum is if I am here to make money and money gets made by people finding me then how do people find me if I’m not active on things like Notes. But that’s not a platform problem so much as a where-my-career-is and online-landscape-changing problem
I totally understand your feeling. I loathe the substacks about growing on substack, and yet in the past I've subscribed to 3.
I also had 1 to 1 coaching from someone well respected here who proved terrible for me. They destroyed my individual style and voice and were part of the reason I left, before making a comeback.
I love it here. But part of the reason I love it is I dont need substack for money. Don't get me wrong, I WANT substack money and I work hard to get it, but my purpose here is different to that. If money was a key factor I'd have left long ago. I know I am very privileged to be in that position.
Substack gurus are the most visible and annoying people who seem to be making the most money. But I always console myself that the best selling substack of all time is run by a history teacher.
I wish I'd had that same talk with myself. I have so many courses, books and old coaching sessions and when I look back, maybe 1 or 2 were really useful.
You've probably already tried it, but have you ever written on Medium? I wrote there for a few years and grew to really dislike it, but the monetary reward can be more immediate and straightforward than on Substack.
Oh that’s interesting to know about medium - i actually never did do much there. When it first came out I couldn’t see the value as compared to having my own blog instead and by the time I saw the value substack was here. It would be worth seeing what else is out there at some point.
I have taken a variety of business classes that have a bunch of coach-y aspects and I often find one or two tidbits helpful but most not so much.
Medium has a boost system. If the curators think your article or story is good enough, they boost it by sending it to many more people.
The good side is discoverability is huge as they do all that for you. All you have to do is write. No self promotion needed. When I left I was making around $600 to $1000 per month. Not loads, but much better than here (for now). It pays to be friendly with the boosters too.
The bad side is you will be writing for the curators, you don't own your audience and are at the mercy of those in charge. It can kill some of the creativity and many top writers have left because of this.
But for you, I was thinking you could try writing there and if you make at least some money, you can write on Substack with less pressure.
Thanks for sharing that. I know that there are some people writing on both platforms and I'm not sure why I've never checked it out further. I'll do that! <3 <3
I don’t honestly know if I want to be here if it’s not earning money but that’s because of a larger issue I’m grappling with about how much of my writing I’ve given away for free for decades when it’s also the way I try to make my living. I like to share as much as possible for free and also a really struggling to support myself. Perhaps because I’m not clear on my own balance with that I get too easily swayed and triggered by the make-money-here-noise.
I totally understand. And that’s why I have the paid subscription option. For people who I want to share my extra special content, I’ll charge them. They see the value. I have an online lifestyle magazine for people with physical disabilities audacitymagazine.com and it comes with a newsletter. In October, I’m putting a paid subscription only. Why? Because people said it was worth something.
So interesting, Kathryn. Your exploration helps me look deeper at my own feelings about this platform, which change daily. I came here to play, to practice in a safe, supportive space. I was shocked when subscribers began to pay me--and I only have a handful. Of course, I'd love to be paid more, but there are boundaries for me that protect my creative identity. One is that although I do facilitate writing workshops for women and will have a new book coming out in September, I don't feel entirely comfortable using my creative space on this platform to promote my work. I know. Call me crazy but it just feels like mixing salt with sugar. Sure, I want people to buy my book and to sign up for my workshops, but I hope that will happen organically in a way that doesn't require me to pollute this space. As far as those who actively sell, sell, sell, promote...ad infinitum. I find that a bit needy and I can't imagine I'd want to learn from them. In fact, I find their material to be more spin than substance. In your work, I've found a balance between creativity and thoughtful exploration, a combination that helps me grow as a writer. I hope you'll stay and navigate the choppy waters when they get too rough.
Thank you so much for your comment and thoughtful understanding of my work.
I can absolutely understand the boundaries you’ve created for yourself … it’s so important to keep figuring out what truly feels right for us. I am trying to learn to slow down and sit with things like this before acting/reacting so much in the hopes that this approach will offer more alignment for me and make it all feel a lot better.
Engaging more in comments and staying off notes seems to be helping at the moment. And like you said my feelings about it change from day to day.
Katherine, I followed your thought process all the way through in this essay (with pleasure!😊), and I could be wrong, but I think that what you’re justifiably uncomfortable with is, 1) pyramid schemes, and, 2) capitalism.
I have often felt similarly with my regular work as a self-employed carpenter. I would love to be able to provide normal regular homeowners like me the kinds of prices that I myself could afford, but in reality, it is the rich people who can afford to pay me the kinds of fees I need to make a living. I haven’t solved that conflict yet except to say that I do work for both, and I don’t have a lot of money saved up for retirement as a result.
In that same respect, you’re asking if Substack writers, who are trying to make a little money as writers, could successfully support enough other writers so it all works well together, and everyone makes some satisfactory income. I have wondered about this too, and I don’t think it works. There has to be readers on here who are not writers trying to “make it,” but rather already have healthy incomes and are simply looking to consume and compensate good writing. “Outsiders,” in other words. Consumers for our product. Without them, we are sort of like a pyramid scheme, aren’t we? Are they here? I don’t know. Heather Cox Richardson would certainly say they are.
That all makes sense. My dad was a woodworker so it’s an art I have a lot of appreciation for. And also I’m sure contributes to all of my “issues” around art+money because of the complicated narratives I grew up with. Dad was an amazing artist who always had trouble supporting himself. But the world was better for his art I believe.
Doing work “for both” as you’ve described makes a lot of sense to me. When I can balance truly creative work and connections with other creatives with paid gigs even if I don’t love them then I usually feel okay about it all.
That all makes sense. My dad was a woodworker so it’s an art I have a lot of appreciation for. And also I’m sure contributes to all of my “issues” around art+money because of the complicated narratives I grew up with. Dad was an amazing artist who always had trouble supporting himself. But the world was better for his art I believe.
Doing work “for both” as you’ve described makes a lot of sense to me. When I can balance truly creative work and connections with other creatives with paid gigs even if I don’t love them then I usually feel okay about it all.
Would love to see your carpentry sometime - do you have a website?
I don’t have a website anymore. I’ve made my living as a remodeling carpenter, but I’ve always enjoyed playing around with woodworking as well. A few years ago I was making guitars, and I once built a cedar canoe. There’s a picture of it at the bottom of my pinned “meet the author” post. I’ll add a link.
Hi, Bryan. I wonder, were you replying to Don (me) or to Kathryn? I find it's very easy to replay to the last comment you read when you actually meant to reply to the original essay, as the two "reply" spaces can be one above the other.
Thanks! That canoe is a great project. My dad was mostly a carpenter on big remodel stuff but in later years did more woodworking projects and in the last years smaller projects like pipes and cutting boards. I have shared his writing on substack but I guess not his wood - here’s a set of his pipes on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/DDAHABePQsA/?igsh=a2xxdnpmeWhycWlp … he also made a guitar and a dulcimer.
One of his later career stages was harvesting fallen trees in Ohio (his original home where he returned every summer) and processing it all there and then bringing it to Arizona (chosen home rest of the year) to sell. He especially loved all the wormy figured woods.
I have experienced so much of what you have written about. I find it hard to be on Substack, as it pulls me in in a way that is unhealthy. I also have another issue that my ex writes here (upon my suggestion) and is doing really well (that is not what I mind, in a way, I wanted him to be happy on Substack, so he could get his supply of admiration) but I find it triggering to see posts of his, and blocking him only goes so far, when so many other people who I follow or subscribe to, do collabs with him and his name (and sometimes his photo/video) keeps popping up in my feed and it is extremely triggering for me, especially as I am trying to maintain No Contact.
I have keep the app off from my phone to get some sanity.
And there are communities of women of my age, midlife women, who have been a lifeline in so many ways. So many great writing groups, so many resources shared, so much female solidarity. That, I am super grateful for. And so, I guess, for now, I stick around.
That would definitely be tough. My recent partners have been anti putting anything about themselves online so I’ve never had to navigate that. ❤️ definitely the midlife women I meet here are the best
Yep, I relate to almost everything you said. I subbed to one of those channels and then had a word with myself and promptly unsubbed. The scarcity mindset as a default is also something I contend with. Posting my handwritten journal pages on here helps me with that in a weird and inexplicable way. Or maybe it’s the writing and not the posting. Could be. I try to remember that I’m sober today. That’s a win every day that it’s true. But I’m coming up on 20 years now and can get complacent. I still prefer Substack to the other socials though. I just have to be judicious with the signals I give to the beast.
Interesting about the journals helping. Love that. Connecting with people in the comments and staying more off notes is helping some. Congrats on the sobriety. That’s a long time and every day matters.
i swim in similar waters and, for me at least, i have to go way farther upstream... the issue is colonization and the colonial ideology that's baked into the economics of relationship in the west (and now globally). It's not our "trauma" our "neurodivergence" or our ACES scores"... it's a total system designed to consume, deplete and exhaust all resources in the pursuit of "more".
I like Substack, but I don’t read those posts ‘make it big on …’ now - I did read a few in the beginning but luckily I don’t like being told what to do (thank you PDA) and so never paid for anything and quickly abandoned them. I don’t want to be like other substacks, I want to be me. And I don’t need the paid subscriptions (luckily, as I only have 3 and I’m surprised at them - and I use that money to subscribe to other artists’ substacks I wouldn’t be able to afford otherwise.) I have to monitor what I’m reading, it’s too easy to get swept away in the political stuff (and I came here to get away from the relentlessness on other platforms- I still want some but not my whole feed) and so I have to curate and be ruthless in muting some publications that might be brilliant but not what I need right now. If people like my stuff that’s fab, if they don’t then I’m doing my therapy on here and that’s good for me.
I find it easy to mute the political although it has meant I’ve had to mute a few people I otherwise really enjoy. But I know for myself that engaging in politics in that way isn’t healthy for me or even informative. … I’ve really only ever been on social platforms as a writer and so it’s always been a weird relationship trying to figure out giving away all my writing for free and still supporting myself through writing. It’s a weird thing. On good days I think it’s a great creative challenge. And then there are other days. For what it’s worth I always love hearing from you here.
I suppose I’m very lucky and privileged in that I don’t need money from my writing. Retired through ill health I get a small pension, the government unwillingly supports me, and hubby willingly supports me. Add to that a massive unhealthy dose of imposter syndrome that tells me my work isn’t worth paying for and huge vats of cynicism and I come out sort of not caring and just going my own way. It may not be the road to commercial success but I’m too old and jaded now to give a toss. I like my few well known substacks of which yours is one. I love it hen you pop into my feed, might take me a while to read, but read I do.
Thank you so much for being here. I always love hearing from you. And that’s definitely the part of substack I like. These connections are so valuable.
I have been selling my writing for so long … but also giving away my writing online for so long … that I think the clash of those things here just hit in a way and at a time that stirred stuff up for me. When I’m here just for the writing and connection, it’s so rich. And yet if it isn’t an income stream then I’m not sure how much time I want to spend here.
But I’m figuring it out. And comments around it that enhance the conversation like this are so helpful.
Also for what it’s worth your words do have value ❤️
Such an interesting and thoughtful piece. I’m new here, have no paid subs, by offering or by purchase. For now it’s just a place to share and meet. I still do get sucked into the vortex of How Many but I think that’s the need to be part of community that is human. Definitely no App on my phone so I have to actively choose to engage. Definitely a balancing act.
The active choice to engage rather than the passive scroll definitely seems to be a key part of making it work for me. ❤️ welcome to the platform. I’m glad to meet you
Thank you for sharing this deep reflection. I think it’s wonderful that you’re breaking it down to understand the nuance of what is somatically being communicated to you. You’ll find what works for you and your needs. I’m also happy to listen and reflect with you if that would be helpful?
I had a very similar journey with FB and IG when I joined solely for work reasons 5 years ago. My body gets physically ill when I go on them. After my recent move to a rural mountainous area, I have found some small pockets of joy and connection LOCALLY on FB which was an utter surprise, so now I only peek in there for finding local resources/events. IG I don’t miss in any way. I noticed when I stopped consuming everyone else’s creativity I had less space for my own to express, so it feels good to play with my own inspiration more.
When I started on Substack in late 2022, it was to make some income from all the educational writing I was doing and allow my inner storyteller to shine more. But that expectation (and writing process) quickly led to burnout for me. A friend recently talked me back to Substack as a way to find other kindred-spirit deep feelers and thinkers. At first I got sucked into the Substack Hustle Culture writers too (“I make 6 figures with these easy consistent tactics!”) and quickly moved them out of my feed. I fine tuned my interest list in my preferences and now I’m generally getting good people who are actively building a better world and connecting those who are also doing good work. When I come with the goal to connect, it feels good. If I slip back into “make a living here” it feels heavy pretty quickly.
I also noted that when I shifted my expectations to only offer what feels light and easy when I have the capacity to do it freely without expectation, then I can stay in a giving mood about it. I’m still trying to figure out how to build community here and honor my own ebbs and flows of energy and just remind myself that if I have to make a choice, it’s about connection here, but never at the expense of my wellbeing.
So Substack will be where I connect and get ideas and share my wisdom, but it’s a small part of my practice so I invest my energy accordingly. I’ve been commenting more and posting much less, which also feels nice weaving the threads of connection.
I also think 5 years post-pamdemic we’re all a bit ready for genuine heart connection and resonance and the shine is wearing off social media and online communities as we realize they are more about performative connection and convenience yet require more investment of time and energy than having a tangible local community. I am ready for nourishing conversation over shared meals and chores or phone calls rather than just over a screen. This week in particular my body called a hard strike on screen time so that’s given me pause about how much work I will offer online.
Leave it to a Cancer Full moon (tonight) to brings us into our feels and question whether we feel nourished by our connections and actions! 😅
Thank you so much for this rich share and I probably will eventually take you up on this offer to chat more about it all - about the how the heck do we make money and do what we are passionate about and navigate all the systems and and and
I am realizing as I’m thinking through everyone’s comments here that a core part of the issue is that I deeply believe in just giving the world what it authentically called to give and the rest works out but I also believe that women tend to undersell themselves in a society that doesn’t value our work so we have to demand to be compensated and those two things are at odds. As is a larger wanting to believe in abundance, reverting back to scarcity issue.
I have found community through mail and then the internet for basically my entire life and I’ve also made my living online and it’s really hard for me to parse those things out. And when one of the ways I make money is to get paid to write “content” and “do social media” for businesses that are using the system’s game to get ahead I tend to have those things seep into my own approach even though they’re not truly aligned for me.
I am definitely noticing that I feel infinitely better here on substack when I engage in comments and not in notes or group chat. Which makes sense I think because the comments of old blogs and new newsletters never really got monetized the way the other things did.
I really appreciate your reminders to pause and listen to my body. I give this advice to others practically daily and still tend to live in my head 🤦♀️🤷🏻♀️
I am also learning to slow until I can hear my truth. I have been using the therapeutic trick of asking myself “okay and what is below that? Okay and what is below that? And below that?” It’s hard for me to be slow. I sent a package to a friend a month later than I planned because that is when it felt right. I have a response to your super wonderful voice messages from last week percolating and am shoulding on myself to reply but know it’s not quite ready. Being slow is not my forte but I think learning it could be my superpower.
I only recently started my substack. I have one post. But this has given me a lot to think on. I am a poet with a traditionally published chapbook who is now looking into self publishing and maybe Substack for my full length book. I gave up on the idea of traditional publishing because, in poetry it is all done through contests where they pick people they know half the time and it costs like 20 to 30 bucks a pop to enter. But what bothers me about poetry is that it's like a pyramid scheme. The schools turn out MFA students every year when there are hardly any jobs for them. So everybody's competing to teach creative writing with their creative writing degrees when there's not enough spots at the top for teachers. And mostly the only people in our culture who read poetry write poetry. But those professors at the top keep recruiting students because that's their job even though they know most of them will end up working as baristas when they're done. Publishing, grad school, it's all messed up. I don't know if I'll try to make money on here. As I married woman whose husband makes a good living I am fortunate that I don't need to earn money from my writing. And as times are hard for people, I want readers more than money and I'm happy to let people read my work for free. I'm privileged to do that. I just wonder if in a society where only writers value literature and only artists value art, if it is going to be possible much longer to make a living with these things. What does that say about us as a society..
Thoughtful piece Kathryn, thank you for articulating so much of what I have been feeling too. Deleting the app from your phone is a bold move (would be for me) but it may be just what I need to keep falling into the bottomless well of scrolling, commenting and inevitably comparison feeding into scarcity mindset.
Thank you for commenting. I am discovering that engaging in comments is so much better for me than notes!
Truthfully I’ve deleted the app and reinstalled it multiple times 🤣 the ease of being able to use it whenever/wherever is not just appealing but truly something I enjoy.
But also the scroll and getting sucked in and checking too often is really real for me so then it has to get deleted again. Finding the balance 🤷🏻♀️
A useful sense check for me too, thankyou. Substack is the first social media I have ever managed to sustain longer than a few months - as a mid-life woman I am part of that demographic you describe that is finding some connection here with others - but I do find it a bit insidious the way it creeps in to my thoughts. I have found most value in how it has helped me progress my own writing - getting something to a sharing point is a useful development. But with that comes almost an expectation of self promotion (more so than contribution?) which I find difficult. Thanks for the post (which, ironically I found scrolling through notes...) it has led to some useful reflections - hence the long comment!
That is the sticky part - I get tons of value out of the connections and the conversations in comments but for people to find me it seems notes has to be a part of that and notes is where it gets icky for me. Navigating that.
It’s interesting how people found and came here for different reasons. I really came because I expected it to be a core part of my income stream - not because of those get rich quick posts but because it seemed like a natural extension of how I was already selling my writing. People who come without having been professionally writing for years have a totally different experience. And people who come having a bestselling professional writing career also must have a different experience.
I do as a whole like the platform. And now it’s just figuring out how to actually make it work in a way that feels good more often than not
Thanks for your reply. I also much prefer hanging out in the comments sections, and find some really thoughtful contributions there - which often adds value to the original piece (I include this comment section in that). I like the aspiration to make it feel good more often than it doesn't - that feels a realistic and pragmatic approach which I will adopt too. It doesn't have to be amazing (as some promote it as being) it just has to meet your own wishes and if you are clear about these that helps too. For me I am thinking that notes can also just be for my existing subscribers rather than being pushed into a being a growth tool (and therefore feeling failure when it really doesn't work that way). So actively resisting growth as the success metric. Thanks so much for your thoughts, and also to others on this thread, it's been really helpful to me and my peace of mind.
Thanks, too, for your comments, as it not only contributes to the larger conversation but also helps me refine what I'm thinking here.
I am intrigued by the idea of using Notes to speak to your existing subscribers. While I think my goal for bothering to be there likely includes growth, it actually makes a lot more sense to me to keep speaking directly to "my people." After all, it's not as though I want to attract people who aren't engaged with what I'm really about - what would be the point in that? Picturing a specific reader actually helps a lot with what to say or not say.
Trickier for me might be figuring out if and how I want to read/engage with other people's Notes!
Thanks. I have started thinking 'do I want to share this with my subscribers?'/ will they be interested based on who/ what I know about them. Or- regardless of subscribers - as a reader am I interested in engaging with this person? Will see how it goes. Reflecting on it, is important I think.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. And I'm also sorry that's your experience.
I suppose some of it is the changing landscape - we have been so oversaturated with social media and so many platforms and the monetization of it all that we just don't want to follow/read as many people which means less people find us I guess. It's a different thing than it was a few years ago and a few years before that. (Or maybe I have just been doing this too long!!)
Recommendations do seem to be one of the keys of getting noticed here ... although I also wonder if that will remain true. I notice that people often automatically hit that "subscribe" button to recommendations when they've subscribed to someone new then realize they are getting a bunch of email they don't want and unsubscribe.
Thank you for your comment. And for subscribing - believe me I totally get not being able to pay for it. None of us can pay for everyone we want to read and I'm really not sure how to reconcile that as a writer but I don't blame anyone else for it!!
I think you're right that although what I seemed to focus on here was the "make more money, do Substack right" stuff, it's really the whole Notes thing entirely even without that that doesn't feel good. I stopped using Twitter within its first couple of years of existence and was actually really surprised when I recently started hearing that writers use it a lot. I've never liked Facebook although found for a while it was a "necessary evil" for promoting work. I guess this is the crux of the problem for me - the same tools that allow me to spread my work to more people are the ones that have a built-in system that doesn't feel good to me.
My hope is that I can get more and more creative, truer to myself and somehow this will all work out financially. We'll see. Keep breaking those rules!!
I've been told that if you use the right (larger, ergonomic) hooks and thicker yarn, it isn't so bad for aching hands. Lighter colored yarn is key for the eyes.
The kids I know (meaning the twenty somethings) all use WhatsApp and Discord for their groups instead of Facebook groups ... I don't know if that's useful at all but maybe worth looking into for the writers group. Although I suppose that's just for the existing group, not promoting it. Regardless, it sounds like a great group - how did you start doing that?
Thanks for sharing it - I love these stories!! I also love the attitude that you’ve been working with technology long enough to know you can learn it. It’s true - if I am motivated enough for the benefits of the platform then I can learn. Usually when I don’t it’s lack of interest.
Congrats to your former writers!! Decades ago I had been doing a zine for incarcerated adults and when I discontinued it, I did my best to match people on the inside with writing mentors on the outside. I was young but one of the pairs ended up getting locally published and it was so good for their self esteem. I am sure there are others whose trajectories you don’t even know how you’ve helped … teaching is like that, sometimes you don’t know your impact til years later if at all. We are all making our ripples. ❤️
I used to work with teens a lot and have been thinking lately this is something I want to do again. I haven’t figured out in exactly what way but your experience has nudged the idea closer to the forefront.
Interesting although for work I’ve had to be very active on some platforms there are others I’ve just never bothered with at all and don’t think about. I really never use YouTube which many people find unbelievable. And I never did get into medium. 🤷🏻♀️ but you’re right - notes really is what is the toughest part for me here and maybe what I need most is to stay out of that section.
And yet many people find me through notes and then they can comment here and really have the richer connections so … 🤷🏻♀️
I do love that we can block and mute. I don’t think substack does a perfect job of giving options (I find that the choices are limited for how to turn down the “noise” for neurodiversity concerns for example) but overall yes I agree that we can shape our experience here to a large extent.
The conundrum is if I am here to make money and money gets made by people finding me then how do people find me if I’m not active on things like Notes. But that’s not a platform problem so much as a where-my-career-is and online-landscape-changing problem
I totally understand your feeling. I loathe the substacks about growing on substack, and yet in the past I've subscribed to 3.
I also had 1 to 1 coaching from someone well respected here who proved terrible for me. They destroyed my individual style and voice and were part of the reason I left, before making a comeback.
I love it here. But part of the reason I love it is I dont need substack for money. Don't get me wrong, I WANT substack money and I work hard to get it, but my purpose here is different to that. If money was a key factor I'd have left long ago. I know I am very privileged to be in that position.
Substack gurus are the most visible and annoying people who seem to be making the most money. But I always console myself that the best selling substack of all time is run by a history teacher.
Your purpose absolutely comes through in your work and it’s an important voice to have here / anywhere.
I almost did the 1:1 thing that had a talk with myself and glad I didn’t.
Choosing to make my living writing online definitely complicates it for me. Hopefully I can keep finding what works for me. ❤️
I wish I'd had that same talk with myself. I have so many courses, books and old coaching sessions and when I look back, maybe 1 or 2 were really useful.
You've probably already tried it, but have you ever written on Medium? I wrote there for a few years and grew to really dislike it, but the monetary reward can be more immediate and straightforward than on Substack.
Oh that’s interesting to know about medium - i actually never did do much there. When it first came out I couldn’t see the value as compared to having my own blog instead and by the time I saw the value substack was here. It would be worth seeing what else is out there at some point.
I have taken a variety of business classes that have a bunch of coach-y aspects and I often find one or two tidbits helpful but most not so much.
Medium has a boost system. If the curators think your article or story is good enough, they boost it by sending it to many more people.
The good side is discoverability is huge as they do all that for you. All you have to do is write. No self promotion needed. When I left I was making around $600 to $1000 per month. Not loads, but much better than here (for now). It pays to be friendly with the boosters too.
The bad side is you will be writing for the curators, you don't own your audience and are at the mercy of those in charge. It can kill some of the creativity and many top writers have left because of this.
But for you, I was thinking you could try writing there and if you make at least some money, you can write on Substack with less pressure.
Thanks for sharing that. I know that there are some people writing on both platforms and I'm not sure why I've never checked it out further. I'll do that! <3 <3
That’s how I feel. Would I like to make money? Yes! But is it my reason for being here? No.
I don’t honestly know if I want to be here if it’s not earning money but that’s because of a larger issue I’m grappling with about how much of my writing I’ve given away for free for decades when it’s also the way I try to make my living. I like to share as much as possible for free and also a really struggling to support myself. Perhaps because I’m not clear on my own balance with that I get too easily swayed and triggered by the make-money-here-noise.
I totally understand. And that’s why I have the paid subscription option. For people who I want to share my extra special content, I’ll charge them. They see the value. I have an online lifestyle magazine for people with physical disabilities audacitymagazine.com and it comes with a newsletter. In October, I’m putting a paid subscription only. Why? Because people said it was worth something.
It sounds like you're figuring out how to make it work for you and I'm so happy to hear it!
I have played with paywalls here and it didn't really work for me but I think it works really well for some people and I want to see them succeed!
Thanks for sharing your comment. I appreciate the connection!
School of Hard Knocks is also an excellent teacher...(top grad here)
So interesting, Kathryn. Your exploration helps me look deeper at my own feelings about this platform, which change daily. I came here to play, to practice in a safe, supportive space. I was shocked when subscribers began to pay me--and I only have a handful. Of course, I'd love to be paid more, but there are boundaries for me that protect my creative identity. One is that although I do facilitate writing workshops for women and will have a new book coming out in September, I don't feel entirely comfortable using my creative space on this platform to promote my work. I know. Call me crazy but it just feels like mixing salt with sugar. Sure, I want people to buy my book and to sign up for my workshops, but I hope that will happen organically in a way that doesn't require me to pollute this space. As far as those who actively sell, sell, sell, promote...ad infinitum. I find that a bit needy and I can't imagine I'd want to learn from them. In fact, I find their material to be more spin than substance. In your work, I've found a balance between creativity and thoughtful exploration, a combination that helps me grow as a writer. I hope you'll stay and navigate the choppy waters when they get too rough.
Thank you so much for your comment and thoughtful understanding of my work.
I can absolutely understand the boundaries you’ve created for yourself … it’s so important to keep figuring out what truly feels right for us. I am trying to learn to slow down and sit with things like this before acting/reacting so much in the hopes that this approach will offer more alignment for me and make it all feel a lot better.
Engaging more in comments and staying off notes seems to be helping at the moment. And like you said my feelings about it change from day to day.
I am glad you’re here. Your work matters to me.
Katherine, I followed your thought process all the way through in this essay (with pleasure!😊), and I could be wrong, but I think that what you’re justifiably uncomfortable with is, 1) pyramid schemes, and, 2) capitalism.
I have often felt similarly with my regular work as a self-employed carpenter. I would love to be able to provide normal regular homeowners like me the kinds of prices that I myself could afford, but in reality, it is the rich people who can afford to pay me the kinds of fees I need to make a living. I haven’t solved that conflict yet except to say that I do work for both, and I don’t have a lot of money saved up for retirement as a result.
In that same respect, you’re asking if Substack writers, who are trying to make a little money as writers, could successfully support enough other writers so it all works well together, and everyone makes some satisfactory income. I have wondered about this too, and I don’t think it works. There has to be readers on here who are not writers trying to “make it,” but rather already have healthy incomes and are simply looking to consume and compensate good writing. “Outsiders,” in other words. Consumers for our product. Without them, we are sort of like a pyramid scheme, aren’t we? Are they here? I don’t know. Heather Cox Richardson would certainly say they are.
That all makes sense. My dad was a woodworker so it’s an art I have a lot of appreciation for. And also I’m sure contributes to all of my “issues” around art+money because of the complicated narratives I grew up with. Dad was an amazing artist who always had trouble supporting himself. But the world was better for his art I believe.
Doing work “for both” as you’ve described makes a lot of sense to me. When I can balance truly creative work and connections with other creatives with paid gigs even if I don’t love them then I usually feel okay about it all.
That all makes sense. My dad was a woodworker so it’s an art I have a lot of appreciation for. And also I’m sure contributes to all of my “issues” around art+money because of the complicated narratives I grew up with. Dad was an amazing artist who always had trouble supporting himself. But the world was better for his art I believe.
Doing work “for both” as you’ve described makes a lot of sense to me. When I can balance truly creative work and connections with other creatives with paid gigs even if I don’t love them then I usually feel okay about it all.
Would love to see your carpentry sometime - do you have a website?
I don’t have a website anymore. I’ve made my living as a remodeling carpenter, but I’ve always enjoyed playing around with woodworking as well. A few years ago I was making guitars, and I once built a cedar canoe. There’s a picture of it at the bottom of my pinned “meet the author” post. I’ll add a link.
https://open.substack.com/pub/donboivin/p/meet-the-author-of-shy-guy-meets?r=2ywgky&utm_medium=ios
Hi, Bryan. I wonder, were you replying to Don (me) or to Kathryn? I find it's very easy to replay to the last comment you read when you actually meant to reply to the original essay, as the two "reply" spaces can be one above the other.
Thanks! That canoe is a great project. My dad was mostly a carpenter on big remodel stuff but in later years did more woodworking projects and in the last years smaller projects like pipes and cutting boards. I have shared his writing on substack but I guess not his wood - here’s a set of his pipes on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/DDAHABePQsA/?igsh=a2xxdnpmeWhycWlp … he also made a guitar and a dulcimer.
Oh, beautiful! He obviously had the same love of wood as I do. I love all the different species and the shimmering grains and depth of color.
One of his later career stages was harvesting fallen trees in Ohio (his original home where he returned every summer) and processing it all there and then bringing it to Arizona (chosen home rest of the year) to sell. He especially loved all the wormy figured woods.
I have experienced so much of what you have written about. I find it hard to be on Substack, as it pulls me in in a way that is unhealthy. I also have another issue that my ex writes here (upon my suggestion) and is doing really well (that is not what I mind, in a way, I wanted him to be happy on Substack, so he could get his supply of admiration) but I find it triggering to see posts of his, and blocking him only goes so far, when so many other people who I follow or subscribe to, do collabs with him and his name (and sometimes his photo/video) keeps popping up in my feed and it is extremely triggering for me, especially as I am trying to maintain No Contact.
I have keep the app off from my phone to get some sanity.
And there are communities of women of my age, midlife women, who have been a lifeline in so many ways. So many great writing groups, so many resources shared, so much female solidarity. That, I am super grateful for. And so, I guess, for now, I stick around.
That would definitely be tough. My recent partners have been anti putting anything about themselves online so I’ve never had to navigate that. ❤️ definitely the midlife women I meet here are the best
Yep, I relate to almost everything you said. I subbed to one of those channels and then had a word with myself and promptly unsubbed. The scarcity mindset as a default is also something I contend with. Posting my handwritten journal pages on here helps me with that in a weird and inexplicable way. Or maybe it’s the writing and not the posting. Could be. I try to remember that I’m sober today. That’s a win every day that it’s true. But I’m coming up on 20 years now and can get complacent. I still prefer Substack to the other socials though. I just have to be judicious with the signals I give to the beast.
Interesting about the journals helping. Love that. Connecting with people in the comments and staying more off notes is helping some. Congrats on the sobriety. That’s a long time and every day matters.
i swim in similar waters and, for me at least, i have to go way farther upstream... the issue is colonization and the colonial ideology that's baked into the economics of relationship in the west (and now globally). It's not our "trauma" our "neurodivergence" or our ACES scores"... it's a total system designed to consume, deplete and exhaust all resources in the pursuit of "more".
That is all certainly true. And I really have no idea most of the time how to thrive within this system or how to move out of the system.
I like Substack, but I don’t read those posts ‘make it big on …’ now - I did read a few in the beginning but luckily I don’t like being told what to do (thank you PDA) and so never paid for anything and quickly abandoned them. I don’t want to be like other substacks, I want to be me. And I don’t need the paid subscriptions (luckily, as I only have 3 and I’m surprised at them - and I use that money to subscribe to other artists’ substacks I wouldn’t be able to afford otherwise.) I have to monitor what I’m reading, it’s too easy to get swept away in the political stuff (and I came here to get away from the relentlessness on other platforms- I still want some but not my whole feed) and so I have to curate and be ruthless in muting some publications that might be brilliant but not what I need right now. If people like my stuff that’s fab, if they don’t then I’m doing my therapy on here and that’s good for me.
I find it easy to mute the political although it has meant I’ve had to mute a few people I otherwise really enjoy. But I know for myself that engaging in politics in that way isn’t healthy for me or even informative. … I’ve really only ever been on social platforms as a writer and so it’s always been a weird relationship trying to figure out giving away all my writing for free and still supporting myself through writing. It’s a weird thing. On good days I think it’s a great creative challenge. And then there are other days. For what it’s worth I always love hearing from you here.
I suppose I’m very lucky and privileged in that I don’t need money from my writing. Retired through ill health I get a small pension, the government unwillingly supports me, and hubby willingly supports me. Add to that a massive unhealthy dose of imposter syndrome that tells me my work isn’t worth paying for and huge vats of cynicism and I come out sort of not caring and just going my own way. It may not be the road to commercial success but I’m too old and jaded now to give a toss. I like my few well known substacks of which yours is one. I love it hen you pop into my feed, might take me a while to read, but read I do.
Thank you so much for being here. I always love hearing from you. And that’s definitely the part of substack I like. These connections are so valuable.
I have been selling my writing for so long … but also giving away my writing online for so long … that I think the clash of those things here just hit in a way and at a time that stirred stuff up for me. When I’m here just for the writing and connection, it’s so rich. And yet if it isn’t an income stream then I’m not sure how much time I want to spend here.
But I’m figuring it out. And comments around it that enhance the conversation like this are so helpful.
Also for what it’s worth your words do have value ❤️
Such an interesting and thoughtful piece. I’m new here, have no paid subs, by offering or by purchase. For now it’s just a place to share and meet. I still do get sucked into the vortex of How Many but I think that’s the need to be part of community that is human. Definitely no App on my phone so I have to actively choose to engage. Definitely a balancing act.
The active choice to engage rather than the passive scroll definitely seems to be a key part of making it work for me. ❤️ welcome to the platform. I’m glad to meet you
Thank you for sharing this deep reflection. I think it’s wonderful that you’re breaking it down to understand the nuance of what is somatically being communicated to you. You’ll find what works for you and your needs. I’m also happy to listen and reflect with you if that would be helpful?
I had a very similar journey with FB and IG when I joined solely for work reasons 5 years ago. My body gets physically ill when I go on them. After my recent move to a rural mountainous area, I have found some small pockets of joy and connection LOCALLY on FB which was an utter surprise, so now I only peek in there for finding local resources/events. IG I don’t miss in any way. I noticed when I stopped consuming everyone else’s creativity I had less space for my own to express, so it feels good to play with my own inspiration more.
When I started on Substack in late 2022, it was to make some income from all the educational writing I was doing and allow my inner storyteller to shine more. But that expectation (and writing process) quickly led to burnout for me. A friend recently talked me back to Substack as a way to find other kindred-spirit deep feelers and thinkers. At first I got sucked into the Substack Hustle Culture writers too (“I make 6 figures with these easy consistent tactics!”) and quickly moved them out of my feed. I fine tuned my interest list in my preferences and now I’m generally getting good people who are actively building a better world and connecting those who are also doing good work. When I come with the goal to connect, it feels good. If I slip back into “make a living here” it feels heavy pretty quickly.
I also noted that when I shifted my expectations to only offer what feels light and easy when I have the capacity to do it freely without expectation, then I can stay in a giving mood about it. I’m still trying to figure out how to build community here and honor my own ebbs and flows of energy and just remind myself that if I have to make a choice, it’s about connection here, but never at the expense of my wellbeing.
So Substack will be where I connect and get ideas and share my wisdom, but it’s a small part of my practice so I invest my energy accordingly. I’ve been commenting more and posting much less, which also feels nice weaving the threads of connection.
I also think 5 years post-pamdemic we’re all a bit ready for genuine heart connection and resonance and the shine is wearing off social media and online communities as we realize they are more about performative connection and convenience yet require more investment of time and energy than having a tangible local community. I am ready for nourishing conversation over shared meals and chores or phone calls rather than just over a screen. This week in particular my body called a hard strike on screen time so that’s given me pause about how much work I will offer online.
Leave it to a Cancer Full moon (tonight) to brings us into our feels and question whether we feel nourished by our connections and actions! 😅
Yes! Let's go to lunch. Lol we probably live on opposite ends of the country. 😂
Yes please! 🤗. In in Western NC, outside of Asheville, where are you??
Cool. I live in Charleston WV. But I went to UNCA and have lived in Spruce Pine, Asheville, and Franklin.
Oh wow, small world!! Well if you are going to be here sometime, please let me know!!
Well for a really small world my sister used to live outside of Asheville (Brevard and Hendersonville) and now lives in Charleston WV!
I'm on the other coast in San Francisco but funny to hear that!!
Oh that's funny.
Thank you so much for this rich share and I probably will eventually take you up on this offer to chat more about it all - about the how the heck do we make money and do what we are passionate about and navigate all the systems and and and
I am realizing as I’m thinking through everyone’s comments here that a core part of the issue is that I deeply believe in just giving the world what it authentically called to give and the rest works out but I also believe that women tend to undersell themselves in a society that doesn’t value our work so we have to demand to be compensated and those two things are at odds. As is a larger wanting to believe in abundance, reverting back to scarcity issue.
I have found community through mail and then the internet for basically my entire life and I’ve also made my living online and it’s really hard for me to parse those things out. And when one of the ways I make money is to get paid to write “content” and “do social media” for businesses that are using the system’s game to get ahead I tend to have those things seep into my own approach even though they’re not truly aligned for me.
I am definitely noticing that I feel infinitely better here on substack when I engage in comments and not in notes or group chat. Which makes sense I think because the comments of old blogs and new newsletters never really got monetized the way the other things did.
I really appreciate your reminders to pause and listen to my body. I give this advice to others practically daily and still tend to live in my head 🤦♀️🤷🏻♀️
I am also learning to slow until I can hear my truth. I have been using the therapeutic trick of asking myself “okay and what is below that? Okay and what is below that? And below that?” It’s hard for me to be slow. I sent a package to a friend a month later than I planned because that is when it felt right. I have a response to your super wonderful voice messages from last week percolating and am shoulding on myself to reply but know it’s not quite ready. Being slow is not my forte but I think learning it could be my superpower.
Thank you for being here and being you.
I only recently started my substack. I have one post. But this has given me a lot to think on. I am a poet with a traditionally published chapbook who is now looking into self publishing and maybe Substack for my full length book. I gave up on the idea of traditional publishing because, in poetry it is all done through contests where they pick people they know half the time and it costs like 20 to 30 bucks a pop to enter. But what bothers me about poetry is that it's like a pyramid scheme. The schools turn out MFA students every year when there are hardly any jobs for them. So everybody's competing to teach creative writing with their creative writing degrees when there's not enough spots at the top for teachers. And mostly the only people in our culture who read poetry write poetry. But those professors at the top keep recruiting students because that's their job even though they know most of them will end up working as baristas when they're done. Publishing, grad school, it's all messed up. I don't know if I'll try to make money on here. As I married woman whose husband makes a good living I am fortunate that I don't need to earn money from my writing. And as times are hard for people, I want readers more than money and I'm happy to let people read my work for free. I'm privileged to do that. I just wonder if in a society where only writers value literature and only artists value art, if it is going to be possible much longer to make a living with these things. What does that say about us as a society..
Thoughtful piece Kathryn, thank you for articulating so much of what I have been feeling too. Deleting the app from your phone is a bold move (would be for me) but it may be just what I need to keep falling into the bottomless well of scrolling, commenting and inevitably comparison feeding into scarcity mindset.
Thank you for commenting. I am discovering that engaging in comments is so much better for me than notes!
Truthfully I’ve deleted the app and reinstalled it multiple times 🤣 the ease of being able to use it whenever/wherever is not just appealing but truly something I enjoy.
But also the scroll and getting sucked in and checking too often is really real for me so then it has to get deleted again. Finding the balance 🤷🏻♀️
A useful sense check for me too, thankyou. Substack is the first social media I have ever managed to sustain longer than a few months - as a mid-life woman I am part of that demographic you describe that is finding some connection here with others - but I do find it a bit insidious the way it creeps in to my thoughts. I have found most value in how it has helped me progress my own writing - getting something to a sharing point is a useful development. But with that comes almost an expectation of self promotion (more so than contribution?) which I find difficult. Thanks for the post (which, ironically I found scrolling through notes...) it has led to some useful reflections - hence the long comment!
That is the sticky part - I get tons of value out of the connections and the conversations in comments but for people to find me it seems notes has to be a part of that and notes is where it gets icky for me. Navigating that.
It’s interesting how people found and came here for different reasons. I really came because I expected it to be a core part of my income stream - not because of those get rich quick posts but because it seemed like a natural extension of how I was already selling my writing. People who come without having been professionally writing for years have a totally different experience. And people who come having a bestselling professional writing career also must have a different experience.
I do as a whole like the platform. And now it’s just figuring out how to actually make it work in a way that feels good more often than not
Thanks for your reply. I also much prefer hanging out in the comments sections, and find some really thoughtful contributions there - which often adds value to the original piece (I include this comment section in that). I like the aspiration to make it feel good more often than it doesn't - that feels a realistic and pragmatic approach which I will adopt too. It doesn't have to be amazing (as some promote it as being) it just has to meet your own wishes and if you are clear about these that helps too. For me I am thinking that notes can also just be for my existing subscribers rather than being pushed into a being a growth tool (and therefore feeling failure when it really doesn't work that way). So actively resisting growth as the success metric. Thanks so much for your thoughts, and also to others on this thread, it's been really helpful to me and my peace of mind.
Thanks, too, for your comments, as it not only contributes to the larger conversation but also helps me refine what I'm thinking here.
I am intrigued by the idea of using Notes to speak to your existing subscribers. While I think my goal for bothering to be there likely includes growth, it actually makes a lot more sense to me to keep speaking directly to "my people." After all, it's not as though I want to attract people who aren't engaged with what I'm really about - what would be the point in that? Picturing a specific reader actually helps a lot with what to say or not say.
Trickier for me might be figuring out if and how I want to read/engage with other people's Notes!
Thanks. I have started thinking 'do I want to share this with my subscribers?'/ will they be interested based on who/ what I know about them. Or- regardless of subscribers - as a reader am I interested in engaging with this person? Will see how it goes. Reflecting on it, is important I think.