I'll chime in on the Notes thing for a sec: I've been really enjoying the sci-friday and macabre monday posts, and I am sort of the keeper of the tags for sci-friday for now. I tag every author who is participating, and I feel like that raises general awareness about what everyone's working on; if nothing else, the 15 or so of us who are writing this week may check out the other writers' work, etc.
That feels like a win/win, with nobody potentially getting salty, but hey, who knows.
I don't personally mind if you tag me in notes; you always have a reason for doing it as far as I can tell, but I can also clearly see the link between Notes and marketing, and I think it's one of our most valuable tools for discovery and marketing, so I might not be the typical person to weigh in here.
I hope this helps! You are doing what you can to amplify work that you find valuable or helpful, and there's gotta be a way to do that, so you can have peace of mind. I hope you can figure it out, and I'll help if I can.
Thank you. I appreciate that. If you hadn’t tagged me to participate in sci-Friday I never would have thought to join in and I’m loving it. And it helps to have another perspective on marketing to consider. Whatever I do moving forward, happy to be in community with you here.
I think just join in! But Andrew rounds it up so I would say go to his notes, find the most recent one related to it, and let him know you’re joining 💙🦋
I am also having my own ethics and social norms problem. I am glad you feel comfortable with vulnerability out in the world. I have mental health issues and sometimes I feel my good intentions and (especially) humor are twisted around and made into microaggressions or something and it is so hurtful right now to be on Substack just in the past 3 weeks. As a non-neurotypical person, social interactions online are not "better" than in person (which I find harrowing), but just different in the same bad degree (does that make sense). People's misattributions of intent make me not want to write so much. I don't plan to make a living off of my writing, but I do need it to help me pay for graduate school (which is does significantly, but not completely). I don't want to hurt people, but I feel like publishing my writing puts me in a place where I can get hurt. I feel like I am losing the courage to write anymore.
First of all, big hugs. This stuff is hard. I often feel comfortable sharing vulnerably in this world ... but that doesn't mean it's easy. It's scary, I feel reactive and hurt, all the things.
What you said about neurodiversity in the online space does make a lot of sense. I see increasing calls for changes to be made to social media and the wider Internet to account for various types of mental health/neurodiversity. I would love to see that happening more. I believe it could start with making apps more customizable so that we can see as much or as little as we opt in to seeing. But that's only a start. And it doesn't / can't address the relational aspect of these sites.
I hope that you don't lose the courage to write. I hope that you find the way that is right for you because your voice is important. <3 <3 <3
Thank you for your vulnerability. I have A have serious mental health issues with a diagnosis of Schizoaffective Disorder, Anxiety, PTSD, and Borderline Personality Disorder. I write when and where I can because I have been extremely marginalized. I’m doing well in therapy and my medication does a good job, however I’ve been having severe memory problems the past couple of years that forced me to move into a facility.
I so appreciate being able to read others who are in recovery, or are in need of support. My income is $50 a month. That is eliminating my ability to interface with many Substack writers.
I used to be a high functioning person with good careers. I was married to a narcissist man who nearly killed me. I came out of that marriage having no identity. It took years to find a new “me”. My family didn’t like the new Margaret, and couldn’t understand my mental health issues. I was alone and had extreme depression for years.
People like me need to have people like yourself who inspire me and reach out to me and those who should learn that we are great people not to be feared or marginalized.
I’m so sorry you are dealing with this right now, I can understand how hard this must be for you. I have found Notes to be very clique-y and difficult to use, and as a new writer (who writes about the darker side of life, ie chronic illness) I often feel very left out or invisible, and I get the same social-media-anxiety thoughts as when I was on Twitter and the feeling of being in a popularity contest. I love the (few) people with whom I communicate with there, though.
And — and I say this with the utmost sincerity — your chats and conversations have for once made me feel welcome and like my voice matters too. It’s clear from every word you write that your intention is inclusivity and to embrace every aspect of being human. It is very rare that I come across this. I don’t have any answers for you as to how to move forward, just wanted to let you know your positive impact. Thank you for being you!
I appreciate hearing that. It's what I'm trying to do and I'm glad it's coming across more often than not. <3
I am really thinking hard about Notes and whether I want to be there at all and if so, how. But I do want to keep being here on Substack in community with all of you. <3
Sep 24, 2023·edited Sep 24, 2023Liked by Kathryn Vercillo
There is a lot of tagging done for Macabre Monday, which I want. I don't want to miss a post/note for that particular event.
As far as people posting notes with over 5 people to check out, I usually ignore those completely. It's a lot of noise and overwhelming. I do show my appreciation when I am tagged in those, because it is a nice gesture.
Ultimately, you are the only authority on how you want to run your Substack. You have to make your own decisions and stand by them. There will always be people who disagree with the way you do things. Just because you don't make the same choices that I make here...does not make you wrong. They are just different.
We are all choosing different paths when it comes to writing on Substack. I think that is a good thing. We are not all going to agree. Also, a good thing. That is how you find your people. (I also read people I don't agree with but it is nice to know who has the same sentiments when it comes to creating. i.e. the people who hire content coaches versus the ones who come up with original content on their own.) There are people who rag on marketing and others who praise it. There are people who don't want to ever charge for their Substack and people who want to make a living off of it.
Getting lost in these kind of tangled weeds does not produce good writing. I've noticed people here are doing everything but that lately. My goal is to always keep the main thing, the main thing...which is writing.
Not saying you’re not keeping writing the main thing btw! I think the people complaining/criticizing are not. I have no problem with the way you choose to do things ❤️🔥
Thanks. I appreciate all of the feedback. Overall I usually ignore this type of stuff and just do me for exactly the reasons you highlighted. In this case, it nagged at me and that is usually a sign for me that something I'm doing isn't quite aligning with what I want to be doing so I opened it up for bigger discussion in the hopes I could get more clarity around exactly what is right for me. This is helping.
I do think you named something that I want to mull over - am I keeping the main thing the main thing? I am in the art and mental health roundups for sure - and actually that's going to be even truer as I just changed the format of those for this week to align with the way I actually do my research in this topic.
But maybe the writing about writing roundup isn't so aligned with my main reason for being here. That's something I'm going to ponder as I figure out what's truly right for me and my people.
I'm strolling through these comments and this one REALLY jumped out. The awareness that when something nags, it might not be fully in alignment with your values and intentions is HUGE. That's definitely a compass for me but one I dismissed for years, largely because I had stopped trusting my intuition (for lots of reasons I don't need to go into here). I'll put my other thoughts in a separate comment, but I wanted to acknowledge how insightful and useful this approach is. Thank you for also opening it for discussion because it's allowed me to ponder perspectives I hadn't even considered.
I view your round-up as GENEROUS and even free marketing to those who are listed in it. Sounds very nice to me! You are someone whose judgement I have come to trust, so look how you are saving me time by curating. Not that I get around to clicking each one in the list because...my own inbox...but your round-up does seem to be a helpful and friendly service to others.
I suppose if someone wanted to do another version that included writers whom they wanted to highlight, they could also do that, yes?
Regarding clicks to paid content, I do say "drat" when I click and then cannot read something, but that is only because I WANTED to read it. So, that means you picked something that I liked, lol. Separately, I wonder if the author gets a count in their clicks from that? If so, I say let them see my click! It shows interest. :)
What you are doing with your FREE round-ups, which take YOUR time and energy to do and then you give TO US, seems generous, in my view. It is like a restaurant menu of good stuff and, just like a restaurant, I have to limit myself to what I am willing to pay, lol. We don't get mad at the restaurant menu for offering stuff I can't have that day, do we? Lol.
I appreciate that comparison to the restaurant menu. I've heard a similar thing about paywalls in general - something along the lines of "we don't call the cashier at the grocery store a paywall blocking access to the apple, why are we calling it that when writers ask for money?"
Do you have any thoughts about the one paid roundup I do weekly? That's what's caused the most controversy. I include lots of different writers and they feel they have to pay to see what they're included in. I have felt that offering a free trial for anyone and a free month comped for any writer I've mentioned makes it free but it's not viewed that way. I'm just looking for additional opinions from people who aren't choosing to pay on this topic?
Ah, so the writers listed in your weekly, paid write-up are being tagged, but they cannot open that write-up to see that they were mentioned. If I were you, I'd just take note of those who express angst and then don't include them. I realize this makes more work for you on your end. I also can't imagine that would be most or many writers, but we can try to respect those who have that feeling. I SURELY DO NOT expect you to contact each writer to ask for their permission before you publish your round-up.
I look at it like this: Once we hit publish on something, our work and names/mentions are out in the world and it is no longer just ours, lol. We cannot control how it will be digested or shared.
I think, Kathryn, that only because we are in our smaller (seemingly) Notes world, we are in vicinity of each other, so people see your round-up. What if there were no Notes? What if you did that only on your webpage somewhere? Authors would not know you mentioned them.
Your heart is in the right place, Kathryn. You are a giver and a nurturer. We need people who are so generous with their energy and time in this world!
Thank you for that. I can actually see what the writer who was initially concerned was saying if I used her words and didn't make them available to her for free ... my confusion was that I do offer that free access for a month so to me that wasn't crossing a line. And I'm curious where other people land on that.
But ultimately, I agree - once we publish, that work isn't really ours anymore, despite copyright and all of that. My words have been published and cited and misquoted and copied and stolen all over the web and in print publications and I just don't put a lot of energy into worrying about it.
This has all given me a lot of food for thought. I appreciate that my intention comes through a lot of the time and want to do my best to make it as a clear as possible. <3
I am glad I came to read the comments. I’ve been having a bit of a wobble about putting my writing out there so freely so an AI can scrape it. I thought I’d made peace with putting stuff out there for free, but I guess I hadn’t! So I am still going to post and just remind myself of the good that can come from it.
I remember feeling disappointed in being unable to read that writers on writing post -- but I don’t recall seeing a note that I could read it for a seven day free trial. (Now the wording might be there, and I just don’t remember it.) if it was there and my eyes had skipped it, please disregard, but if it isn’t? Maybe beef up that section a bit?
Hm, it should have showed up as an option as soon as you hit the paywall. I'll have to log out and look at that to make sure. Thanks for making me aware of that.
There's a lot to consider with the AI issue. I don't worry about it for myself probably because I have been writing online for nearly twenty years and I know for sure that AI has already scraped me. It's not a battle I'm personally willing to concern myself with but I think it's an important issue anyway. If you don't already know The Muse by Birgitte here on Substack, you might find her thoughts on this helpful - she's got a really in depth perspective writing about it.
Ditto what Leanne said... I read the post I was mentioned in and then hit the paywall but don't recall seeing the 7-day free trial offer. Maybe I was rushed and just missed it? I read it while on a trip with my husband and my chain of thoughts went something like this:
-- OH, look! 🤓 Kathryn tagged me in her post! Yippee.
-- Uh, I can't see what she wrote about what I wrote. 🙁 Darn. That's a bummer.
-- Hmm, I've been meaning to subscribe. Maybe now is the time. 🤔I've got to check my budget first.
And then we had to get going and I haven't yet revisited the post. We're back home and that's when I got yanked into all the discussions this article stimulated... which have been simultaneously helpful and confusing. 😜
Free subscribers are happy with posts and notes. If you have more time than working people, chats aren’t a big deal but it might drive more subscribers. I was happiest on Substack before Notes when I only followed 10 favorites who were my favorites long before Substack.
Love you to the moon Kathryn. But one things to ponder is that people are way too enmeshed with the complexities of their inner world to wanna hear about yours. I enjoy skimming through your roundups but at the end of the day, they may be way too long.
Honestly, I really get you though. I tend to go REALY DEEP with people too. Yet most end up scurrying away at the end which used to upset me terribly.
But here is the good news -- I’m at peace with that having hit 60 earlier this year. For the first time in my life I’m fully acceptant of who I am, who I’m not, who I hope to become in my legacy years. That’s my rap.
Thanks so much for all of that. One of the things I love about aging (I'm 43) is that I get more and more secure in doing what's right for me, being gentle with myself when I make mistakes and need to pivot, and not worrying a lot about the rest.
I'm going to think on what you said about length. I see what I'm doing here as creating a body of work that's all related to a theme (particularly in my roundups related specifically to the topic of art and mental health.) I see it essentially as curating a library of content around that niche that people can turn to at any time, dip in, find what they need at that time, go deeper or not ... I wonder if it would be helpful to others if I found a way to make that clearer. So that people understand that the one specific article isn't really what it's about ... Just thinking aloud here.
Katheryn Vercillo, you are certainly wise beyond your years! Hearing all of these other authors’ voices is enlightening. I look so forward to your Notes each week. It always seems to resonate. I can liken it to traveling when I read this column. It gives me a passport to places of feelings, and ideas, or Art. There’s so much to be gained, in my opinion.
I make greeting cards for populations of people overlooked by Hallmark and everyone else. It’s not a business. It’s not meant to be. I do it by request. It’s how escape my mental entrapment. I have cards for guys that don’t suck, people in wheelchairs, the LGTBQ community, and minorities, when asked by friends. It’s stuff you just can’t find where I live in the Midwest. I’m also making up a few Hannukah cards. My stuff isn’t great, but people like having something to send that represents the recipient a bit better than the Kansas City conglomerate. So that’s my hobby. It keeps me alive.
I don’t know if anyone will ever get any interest out of that. But it gets more interesting as my brain doesn’t cooperate.
I would not personally pull someone's work and then charge them to see it, no. I don't know that it's unethical; I just wouldn't feel good about it. I would, at the very least, ask their permission first and then offer to give them a month's free subscription so they could read it if they liked without paying to read their own work.
If my post were free, I would feel fine about including them without asking, unless they specifically asked me not to.
As for the long lists, I think any list is likely to make some folks feel left out because everyone is going to want to 'make' the list, you know? It's like not being picked in gym or something.
Frequency may be an issue, too. The way Notes works currently, we see a lot of the same posts over and over again (some of us, anyway). And so even a handful of similar posts are going to feel very repetitive super fast.
As for marketing more generally, most writers I know personally really hate it. They hate doing it. They hate not doing it. They hate reading about it. But it's accepted as this onerous thing we 'have' to do unless we are already wealthy, have a teaching appointment, or are content to live as a bohemian artist. You've been very upfront about your intention to make a full-time living doing this newsletter, so I think it is perfectly fair and reasonable for folks to expect that you will be trying to make money through all this. What might be turning people off (without or without their knowledge) is that all of us are in the same kind of bind. There aren't really a lot of 'just' readers on Notes. We're all writers. And we're all trying to do the same things, more or less, which is build or perpetuate a professional writing identity or career. I think it's fine to ask writers to support each other, but it's also important to remember that they need support, too. It's a mutual aid kind of ask--at least on this platform, as it current is. That's how I see it.
Anyway, thank you for being willing to open this up. Everyone was grumbling around 'certain kinds of posts,' and I was getting very lost. I'm sure you will find your way with this and figure out what's right.
Thank you for all of your thoughts. All welcome and appreciated.
I hadn't considered your point that perhaps for paid I should ask first and offer the month in advance. I say at the top of those posts that any writer named gets a month free, but maybe that's not proactive enough. Perhaps what I may do is reduce that paid writing about writing one to a monthly post instead of a weekly one, more highly curated, and then that gives me time to ask the writers I've chosen in advance if it's okay to include them. That's something I'll chew on more.
I think you hit on something really key in your discussion about marketing on Substack in general. I used to feel that way but having been writing for my food online for so many years I've just come to a neutral place with it. But what you said is a problem I see too - that if everyone on here is just trying to get people to pay for their writing then we're kind of in a weird echo chamber. For me, I see it as a place where if people support my writing then I can pay to support the writing of others ... but I'm seeing a lot of people here can't/won't pay at all so then if we have a large percentage of people asking for payment but not paying others then it's not sustainable. I'm not sure what the solution is to that but hope it's a conversation Substack will keep having.
What’s true for me today is that today’s Notes posted exactly on the topic I was going to post on. This may sound odd, and maybe a bit rude to start off with, but I don’t mean to offend, so please just follow me.
I can remember years ago when years ago when suddenly public toilets required payment. That meant anyone without change on hand was denied usage what had been accessible for everyone. The trend didn’t last long, but the element of exclusion to the need to obtain information and even provide expression seems to be getting limited without payment to outlets including network television, and the many news outlets, and artists, and other media that one might have encountered in a public place, which was vital for low income people who wish to remain informed.
I personally feel the walls closing in on me.
I had to buy a new TV. I cannot get network TV without buying subscriptions. I am cut off from my local Cedar Rapids Gazette and most all other newspapers without making a trip to spend the entire day at the library. I have one newspaper purchase. A yearly subscription to the New York Times fot $99.
A $99 annual subscription is a huge investment for me to get information. I live in a facility. My monthly income is a limited $50 a month. That’s right, $50 a month for all of my clothing, toiletries, shoes, outerwear, and entertainment. What is left for what I crave… information?
Information is what I need to inform myself and others, especially because policy in Washington and Des Moines affects my quality of life. I need to get the word out, but how can I do that if I can’t afford to subscribe to these important outlets of direct, unbiased reporting? And as far as myself, I appreciate having the opportunity to share my thoughts with a greater audience, for whatever it’s worth.
I have my own Substack blog. It has a low readership. But having the ability to post on notes of others helps to get the message out.
I can’t pay $25, or $10 a month here, or even annually, to several outlets. I still get stuck with medical bills that insurance doesn’t cover. I have to find creative ways to pay for them when they pop up. I had to default on my credit cards which still has me feel like vomiting, because that’s not who I am, but that’s what I was forced into.
I realize everyone needs income too. I don’t know the perfect answer. I’m feeling iced out of society, of what was free, what was normal, and what was predictable. I think everyone does.
Hugs around the difficulty of that. I've been there and understand that side of things.
I'm not really sure what the solution is. On the one hand, I'd love all ideas and information to be free for others and on the other hand I work really hard full-time at curating and expressing my ideas and that should be paid for by someone - but who? What I wish is that the society itself was structured differently and this wasn't an issue but that's not likely to change anytime soon.
I know that Emma Gannon is an example of someone whose Substack is primarily for paid subscribers but she offers a handful of free subscriptions to people who truly can't afford it. That could be one model I'd use. And Margaret Atwood mentioned that she doesn't need the income so all her paid subscriptions get donated to a charity. I would love to have a huge Substack that supports me financially and that people use the options of "gift a subscription" and "donate a subscription" to make some free subscriptions available to low-income creatives. I'm not there yet but I'm trying to be. <3
Hi! I have a really simple reflection within this... Do YOU. Your ideas and ways of sharing are coming from your heart (that is honestly so very obvious). The folks who resonate with you and FEEL the GIFTS moving through your offerings will willingly be present and participate. Its a bummer that folks are taking personally the creative choices and community building efforts that you are exploring. THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT, meant to be playful, flexible and exploratory. Creativity and bringing our GIFTS as offerings is meant to reveal some level of differentiation. Meaning certain people will feel the resonance and lean IN while others will feel a resistance and shift away. IM NOT FOR EVERYONE. The way I share and create doesn't land for everyone. The way I invite people INTO my offerings is actually what helps the aligned folks locate me. What I feel deeply excited to discuss and reflect with, doesn't resonate with a lot of people. That is why I tag folks in my Notes - because I want to LISTEN with their thoughts on something that I am learning and exploring. I want to enrich my perspective and create a space where wisdom can be planted. I don't see any issue with tagging in Notes. As humans we naturally tend to gather with folks that share common threads of interest and curiosity to explore together. I am also here to cultivate a healthy bountiful harvest with my GIFTS. I desire to do that my very own way. I will craft that path as I go, adapt and shift as my heart sees fit and trust my instincts about what FEELS aligned for me. All that to say - stay true to your journey. You KNOW what is best for your creative VOICE. You know where your intentions are birthed from. Do it YOUR UNIQUE WAY.
Thank you. I value this. Ultimately I will do me ... I think what happened here was that the concerns hit a nerve that made me realize "okay, if I'm so bothered by this then it might mean there's something I'm doing that's out of alignment with what's true for me" and I opened it up to discussion to get clearer on that for myself.
I really really love this part of what you said: "THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT, meant to be playful, flexible and exploratory."
I am going to write that out and put it on my desk as a reminder.
I love that you have embraced this moment as a self reflective invitation, listening WITH your very own integrity. Our attunements arrive in mysterious ways!! I FEEL you are wonderful and generous and I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to JOIN IN.
I’m going to be frank here. I am a reader and half hearted wannabe writer who stumbled on to Substack well into her retirement years. I still cannot distinguish between posts, restocks, notes, and chat. I enjoy most of what I read from those I follow and those I subscribe to and those I paid to subscribe to. It was a little easier to distinguish before the last app update removed the Notes icon from the bottom. I’m still trying to determine if non-writing readers are welcome here as I see so many posts that seem to be writers addressing writers. It does seem that if this is meant to provide income to writers that readers need to be a substantial portion of the audience. I like observing the writer to writer posts and gaining some insight into the world of a writer so I’ll probably stay whether I’m welcome or not-I’m a superior grade lurker. All that being said (in a most helter skelter manner I might add), my question would have to be can a writer make money on Substack directing their material only to other writers or would it be better to aim at the non-writer or reader population? (Sorry for the randomness).
That makes perfect sense. I think it hits on a huge problem of Substack. If we're all here to have people read our writing but we aren't reading other people's writing (and particularly if we won't pay to read other people's writing) then it seems like the whole model is unsustainable.
I certainly value there being "just readers" and want lots of them to feel welcome to the community.
And I think this identifies a big problem with Notes. I think the whole conversation that has been generated around this is really asking "what's Notes for?" Is it for writers to support one another? Is it for readers to see whose writing? Is it something else? I think we don't know the answer to that and haven't come to an agreement ... and maybe we all want to use it for something different which is okay too.
To that end, I'm questioning whether/how I want to use Notes at all. It's so confusing!!
Hi Kathryn. I was drawn here from Notes, by the way. :) My 2 pennies.
1. That you're well meaning in all this is clear.
2. Don't feel bad or apologize for wanting to earn a living from your writing. People like things for free. I like things for free. Often people can't afford things. I often can't afford things. But the idea that writers shouldn't earn from their work just as anyone else wants to is I'll informed at best.
3. About the use of other writers' words, there already exist fair use rights standards. If you quote in limited amounts to analyze and comment upon, no permission need be sought. If you quote more extensively, you should seek permission. If you quote in commercial use (to make money yourself) that's going to be more problematic, especially if the original author did not. I myself would object in that latter instance, without permission. But I'm not a lawyer. Here's the resource: https://www.copyright.gov/about/
Thank you for that reminder. It's been a while since I reviewed Fair Use and that's something to think about as I move forward.
At this point, I'm leaning towards either not charging for roundups, not doing roundups, or doing them less frequently and charging for them but getting permission from the writers before publication. We'll see ...
It’s not that I don’t agree that writers should be paid for their work. The problem is that I’m restricted by law to earning income because of the type of assistance I require to keep the kind of help that I need. I agree in free speech, and in capitalism.
I never thought I would find myself in an underclass. My POV has changed to some degree because I experience a degree of what truly needy people do.
I’ve found myself hoarding things that I would have otherwise donated to a charity, or homeless shelter, fearing I may need them myself in the future because I fear insecurity in whatever may come. For now I’m living in an assisted living facility. It’s my long-term home, and a world apart. Yet I remain hopeful.
Yes, that's a really tough thing and something that I also understand as someone with chronic illness who is often on limited income in a very expensive city. It's not quite the same situation but I've definitely had my financial challenges as a result. The problem isn't with the individuals who aren't making enough money to pay - it's with the whole system that's creating this issue for so many!!
Exactly! We are punished for being chronically ill! My assisted living facility says I am short every month on my income, thus living on $50. The government program I’m on doesn’t allow me to generate income. I’m absolutely over the barrel
I needed a new TV. I love it except I couldn’t watch PBS without a Passport subscription of $60. I initially subscribed to one Substack author, not understanding that there would be many to pay. I dropped my New York Times electronic subscription for the coming year in order to buy a new jacket. I haven’t taken the tags as of yet. Debating… I crave information. I keep trying on the jacket. Damn.
This must seem like utter stupidity from an onlooker.
I think from the outside it seems petty. From my perspective, I have to choose the few things that I’m going to have. And I still have to put gas in my car. So I’m taking things to consignment that I no longer need. My vehicle is my one escape from this place.
I don’t mean to beat a dead horse. I just don’t think the wider public generally understands having to live a restricted lifestyle. And I live much better than most people here.
I’ve gone completely off topic. I don’t mean to hijack your discussions, which have brought needed diverse views to the surface.
Maybe Substack will not, in the end, be a sustainable outlet for me. I will have to be okay with that. I will need to be satisfied with what I can access and let it lie there.
I have a lot of family and friends particularly in the disability and chronic illness communities who have had to constantly go without many things they really need, including medication, because of cost. It's a huge systemic issue that I would love to see be very different.
Regarding the differing opinions on your roundups, I just want to say that it has been a goal of mine to make your list once I get brave and start writing. I appreciate the thought (and heart) that you are putting into this.
There's so much here. First, I'm completely honored anytime you reflect on something I wrote and include it in your links. That's the kind of discussion I like to have with folks and the whole point for me of writing - that others reflect on it and incorporate it as their own. As a a photographer, I made peace a long time ago with the fact that people were going to steal my photos and use them as their own no matter what safeguards I tried to put in place. With writing and stories I think hey, the best stories are the ones people have told and retold and anyway is anything I'm saying really completely unique? Isn't it all a reflection on what I've taken in, through various means?
I'd add to that - you are a professional writer! I'm still an aspiring professional in the writing/essay world (I have a day job) and every time a professional writer finds value in my work I'm honored. I hope/think I will always be. Why am I not a subscriber? It's simple really - I'm subscribed to way too many things. When I started out here on Substack I subscribed to everyone who subscribed to me plus everything I was interested in and did a lot of paid subscriptions. I finally set a budget for two reasons - 1) I can't read everything. I can't come close to reading everything. I've found I don't read really long posts very often because, well, time and attention. Not for lack of desire. So I keep a list of things I'd like to subscribe to and ever couple months I re-evaluate it. I'm also happy to trade photos for subscriptions, though so far no one has been interested in that. Or maybe they don't know. Or maybe I don't make it easy enough to access the photos. Most people use the low cost photos from various photo sites but it is hard to make any money doing that and I just don't have time to try and maintain such a thing. Plus they have requirements for what kind of camera you should have and a bunch of other stuff - and my photos don't tend towards the very popular styles for such things.
As to putting it behind a paywall - again, I felt like its as just an honor and I didn't even know about your ways of being able to read it. I didn't really look! You have a right to make a living and my work is out there in the public domain - and geez, how can this be detrimental? I see it as expanding my audience. I guess others see it different.
Regarding Notes (and chat) - I just don't have time. I don't spend much time on social media for this reason. I continue to post on Facebook because I have a large group there who have followed me a long time. I continue to post on Instagram because it's easy to post what I posted on FB and I have a few dear friends who are only on instagram. I used to post on twitter in the pre-Musk days because there was a nice community of nature photographers but honestly I never had time and I haven't missed it (and most of them have moved to other platforms I understand). Plus I just can't support Musk. I keep thinking I *should* be doing something on notes and chat and I feel guilty for the people who are regularly posting my stuff, like I should be doing it in return, but it's more energy than I have to give at the moment.
As to paid vs free. Oof. I think it's the wild Wild West right now and everyone should follow their gut. I totally respect every method that people have chosen. Actually I'm watching them all with curiosity. I can't figure it out so I keep trying different things. (Keeping in mind I do this part time.) Sometimes it doesn't make people happy. Ok. I always remember the Brene Brown quote which was something like "Don't take feedback from someone who is not willing to be in the arena." I take that to mean a similar arena to yours. And even then, everyone has an opinion and it's usually one that justifies their own choices. I didn't like the "discount" thing - until I figured out Substack wouldn't let me go below $30 and I wanted to see what happened if I did. So you know. (I also learned the hard way that someone could cost me more than they paid, when someone auto renewed and then filed it as fraud with their credit card. On top of the refund and the fees for both the transaction and the refund, Stripe charged me $15. Oof. Tried to email the person directly but no response. People just don't really think about who pays for that stuff, it's so easy to hit the button anonymously. But I digress.)
I think you have an audience. When I have time to read it, I love it. It just might not be the thing I'm paying for right now but that doesn't mean I don't see the value!
Last note - I'm not feeling well today either. I didn't sleep last night which I find so frustrating because I've done sooooooooo many things to try and sleep better. I asked a similar question to this about something else I was having trouble befriending to Tara Brach and her answer - which I've now heard her give to others as well - was can you bring compassion to the part of you that doesn't want to befriend it? Can you bring compassion to the part that is battling and fighting rather than telling it to stand down? (Hope that makes sense - it's hard to try and pass along a wise teaching because I'm not that level of teacher of course! and PS, I love every Tara Brach meditation and they are free (or donate what you can) on her website.)
Your last section resonated for me. I often lose sleep over whether I did something wrong or not. It's something I find easy to bring compassion to others for - just the fact that you're struggling with it means you're a caring person. AND. Oof, everyone has an opinion and sometimes the way something is received is just not like we intended because every receiver is looking through a different lens. There's no way around that. I felt guilty when I saw the person had auto-renewed and hadn't been opening my posts. But there's not much I can do other than reaching out by email and when I got no response I finally let it go.
I should also add - if I am ever fortunate enough to be able to make a living out here, I do intend to pay it forward to other writers I like. I do some of that already - I still pay more in subscriptions than I'm taking in - but obviously we all have to put food on the table. And we should be able to!
Thank you for all of this. I need to take some offline time and put food in my body but I saw your response come through and wanted to at least acknowledge it. Really appreciate all the thoughts and will come back to respond more later. 💙💙
Thanks again for the really thoughtful in-depth response. Same here in terms of making peace with that people will steal my stuff online and use it however they want ... we're all at different stages and sides of that and that's okay but for me it's never been worth the hassle to track people down and do the "take it down" back and forth. What's meant to thrive will and that's enough for me, personally. But I do want to respect how I use other people's work and it was concerning enough to me to bring it up for varied perspectives which I've really appreciated receiving here.
Quickly on a few other things before I head back offline to do my homework ...
I didn't realize that you offer your photos, which I think is a great thing to do in exchange for a subscription. I am pondering options for bartering and if that's something I want to do at all. I hope more people see that you're doing that.
I think putting a budget on what you can pay to subscribe to makes perfect sense. I do the same and re-evaluate periodically.
I didn't realize that there could be problems like you said of the whole auto-renew, fraud, Stripe issue and that's concerning! I haven't been on here long enough for people to hit the auto-renew so that's something for me to be aware of when that time approaches.
And finally, just thanks for being here. I love your posts, your photos, and am grateful for these thoughts. I am resonating with that Tara Brach meditation and I'm bringing compassion and gentleness to myself and to everyone else in this conversation.
Reg Notes (disclaimer: I'm a total newbie to Substack, I didn't set up my publications/newsletter here yet): I discovered everyone I follow and/or subscribed to (including paid subscriptions) via Notes. Again, as of now, I don't know any other way to discover MY writers here other than Notes, because recommendations and explore seem very algorithmic-related aka repeating what social media platforms are doing: pushing already popular writers. And this is not what I came here for.
PS: thank you for the work and effort you're putting into your Substack!
Agree that Notes seems to be one of the best ways to discover other people here so far. One thing I would love to see improved here is the search function... I would love to search for topics that interest me and find the people writing about them but the search functionality is just that great yet.
Kathryn, when I first read the post where you talked about having negative experience on Substack, I was taken aback. I was tagged by you (and thanked you for it!) and more broadly, have found your writing to be so supportive of other people, I couldn't imagine what happened.
Now that I have read your description of the complaints, I am thinking “whaaa?”
I think everything that I have read by you has been above reproach. Which is not to say that there will always be naysayers I guess.
I think that you should structure your work how you want to and choose carefully about how much to engage with those who may not be coming from a laudable place.
I know that I am going to be posting some things that won’t be palatable to everyone, but my whole point of being here is to write the things I have wanted/needed to say and have control over my message.
The other thing that strikes me is that people with disabilities are constantly being asked to work for free. Writing is work (at least it is if you’re doing it right). You have so many options for access to your work; I don't think you should feel guilty about anything. 💐
Thank you. It helps to hear this point of view and it's so true that people with disabilities / chronic illness/ etc are often expected to work for free ... or to be grateful when they get a little bit ... which is not okay. It's tough, right, because they're also the ones on limited income who can't pay to support subscriptions ... that's why I try to offer a lot of discounts and affordability and free options. I think we're all trying to figure out this model and it's tricky but it's a place for conversation and growth. <3
I'll chime in on the Notes thing for a sec: I've been really enjoying the sci-friday and macabre monday posts, and I am sort of the keeper of the tags for sci-friday for now. I tag every author who is participating, and I feel like that raises general awareness about what everyone's working on; if nothing else, the 15 or so of us who are writing this week may check out the other writers' work, etc.
That feels like a win/win, with nobody potentially getting salty, but hey, who knows.
I don't personally mind if you tag me in notes; you always have a reason for doing it as far as I can tell, but I can also clearly see the link between Notes and marketing, and I think it's one of our most valuable tools for discovery and marketing, so I might not be the typical person to weigh in here.
I hope this helps! You are doing what you can to amplify work that you find valuable or helpful, and there's gotta be a way to do that, so you can have peace of mind. I hope you can figure it out, and I'll help if I can.
Thank you. I appreciate that. If you hadn’t tagged me to participate in sci-Friday I never would have thought to join in and I’m loving it. And it helps to have another perspective on marketing to consider. Whatever I do moving forward, happy to be in community with you here.
Same. We'll get this figured out!
How do I get in to that?
I think just join in! But Andrew rounds it up so I would say go to his notes, find the most recent one related to it, and let him know you’re joining 💙🦋
Yeah, what Kathryn said! If you're following me, you'll probably see some stuff via Notes on this.
I am also having my own ethics and social norms problem. I am glad you feel comfortable with vulnerability out in the world. I have mental health issues and sometimes I feel my good intentions and (especially) humor are twisted around and made into microaggressions or something and it is so hurtful right now to be on Substack just in the past 3 weeks. As a non-neurotypical person, social interactions online are not "better" than in person (which I find harrowing), but just different in the same bad degree (does that make sense). People's misattributions of intent make me not want to write so much. I don't plan to make a living off of my writing, but I do need it to help me pay for graduate school (which is does significantly, but not completely). I don't want to hurt people, but I feel like publishing my writing puts me in a place where I can get hurt. I feel like I am losing the courage to write anymore.
First of all, big hugs. This stuff is hard. I often feel comfortable sharing vulnerably in this world ... but that doesn't mean it's easy. It's scary, I feel reactive and hurt, all the things.
What you said about neurodiversity in the online space does make a lot of sense. I see increasing calls for changes to be made to social media and the wider Internet to account for various types of mental health/neurodiversity. I would love to see that happening more. I believe it could start with making apps more customizable so that we can see as much or as little as we opt in to seeing. But that's only a start. And it doesn't / can't address the relational aspect of these sites.
I hope that you don't lose the courage to write. I hope that you find the way that is right for you because your voice is important. <3 <3 <3
Thank you for your vulnerability. I have A have serious mental health issues with a diagnosis of Schizoaffective Disorder, Anxiety, PTSD, and Borderline Personality Disorder. I write when and where I can because I have been extremely marginalized. I’m doing well in therapy and my medication does a good job, however I’ve been having severe memory problems the past couple of years that forced me to move into a facility.
I so appreciate being able to read others who are in recovery, or are in need of support. My income is $50 a month. That is eliminating my ability to interface with many Substack writers.
I used to be a high functioning person with good careers. I was married to a narcissist man who nearly killed me. I came out of that marriage having no identity. It took years to find a new “me”. My family didn’t like the new Margaret, and couldn’t understand my mental health issues. I was alone and had extreme depression for years.
People like me need to have people like yourself who inspire me and reach out to me and those who should learn that we are great people not to be feared or marginalized.
I’m so sorry you are dealing with this right now, I can understand how hard this must be for you. I have found Notes to be very clique-y and difficult to use, and as a new writer (who writes about the darker side of life, ie chronic illness) I often feel very left out or invisible, and I get the same social-media-anxiety thoughts as when I was on Twitter and the feeling of being in a popularity contest. I love the (few) people with whom I communicate with there, though.
And — and I say this with the utmost sincerity — your chats and conversations have for once made me feel welcome and like my voice matters too. It’s clear from every word you write that your intention is inclusivity and to embrace every aspect of being human. It is very rare that I come across this. I don’t have any answers for you as to how to move forward, just wanted to let you know your positive impact. Thank you for being you!
I appreciate hearing that. It's what I'm trying to do and I'm glad it's coming across more often than not. <3
I am really thinking hard about Notes and whether I want to be there at all and if so, how. But I do want to keep being here on Substack in community with all of you. <3
There is a lot of tagging done for Macabre Monday, which I want. I don't want to miss a post/note for that particular event.
As far as people posting notes with over 5 people to check out, I usually ignore those completely. It's a lot of noise and overwhelming. I do show my appreciation when I am tagged in those, because it is a nice gesture.
Ultimately, you are the only authority on how you want to run your Substack. You have to make your own decisions and stand by them. There will always be people who disagree with the way you do things. Just because you don't make the same choices that I make here...does not make you wrong. They are just different.
We are all choosing different paths when it comes to writing on Substack. I think that is a good thing. We are not all going to agree. Also, a good thing. That is how you find your people. (I also read people I don't agree with but it is nice to know who has the same sentiments when it comes to creating. i.e. the people who hire content coaches versus the ones who come up with original content on their own.) There are people who rag on marketing and others who praise it. There are people who don't want to ever charge for their Substack and people who want to make a living off of it.
Getting lost in these kind of tangled weeds does not produce good writing. I've noticed people here are doing everything but that lately. My goal is to always keep the main thing, the main thing...which is writing.
Not saying you’re not keeping writing the main thing btw! I think the people complaining/criticizing are not. I have no problem with the way you choose to do things ❤️🔥
Thanks. I appreciate all of the feedback. Overall I usually ignore this type of stuff and just do me for exactly the reasons you highlighted. In this case, it nagged at me and that is usually a sign for me that something I'm doing isn't quite aligning with what I want to be doing so I opened it up for bigger discussion in the hopes I could get more clarity around exactly what is right for me. This is helping.
I do think you named something that I want to mull over - am I keeping the main thing the main thing? I am in the art and mental health roundups for sure - and actually that's going to be even truer as I just changed the format of those for this week to align with the way I actually do my research in this topic.
But maybe the writing about writing roundup isn't so aligned with my main reason for being here. That's something I'm going to ponder as I figure out what's truly right for me and my people.
I'm strolling through these comments and this one REALLY jumped out. The awareness that when something nags, it might not be fully in alignment with your values and intentions is HUGE. That's definitely a compass for me but one I dismissed for years, largely because I had stopped trusting my intuition (for lots of reasons I don't need to go into here). I'll put my other thoughts in a separate comment, but I wanted to acknowledge how insightful and useful this approach is. Thank you for also opening it for discussion because it's allowed me to ponder perspectives I hadn't even considered.
Hi Kathryn!
I view your round-up as GENEROUS and even free marketing to those who are listed in it. Sounds very nice to me! You are someone whose judgement I have come to trust, so look how you are saving me time by curating. Not that I get around to clicking each one in the list because...my own inbox...but your round-up does seem to be a helpful and friendly service to others.
I suppose if someone wanted to do another version that included writers whom they wanted to highlight, they could also do that, yes?
Regarding clicks to paid content, I do say "drat" when I click and then cannot read something, but that is only because I WANTED to read it. So, that means you picked something that I liked, lol. Separately, I wonder if the author gets a count in their clicks from that? If so, I say let them see my click! It shows interest. :)
What you are doing with your FREE round-ups, which take YOUR time and energy to do and then you give TO US, seems generous, in my view. It is like a restaurant menu of good stuff and, just like a restaurant, I have to limit myself to what I am willing to pay, lol. We don't get mad at the restaurant menu for offering stuff I can't have that day, do we? Lol.
I appreciate that comparison to the restaurant menu. I've heard a similar thing about paywalls in general - something along the lines of "we don't call the cashier at the grocery store a paywall blocking access to the apple, why are we calling it that when writers ask for money?"
Do you have any thoughts about the one paid roundup I do weekly? That's what's caused the most controversy. I include lots of different writers and they feel they have to pay to see what they're included in. I have felt that offering a free trial for anyone and a free month comped for any writer I've mentioned makes it free but it's not viewed that way. I'm just looking for additional opinions from people who aren't choosing to pay on this topic?
Appreciate you being here!! <3 <3 <3
Ah, so the writers listed in your weekly, paid write-up are being tagged, but they cannot open that write-up to see that they were mentioned. If I were you, I'd just take note of those who express angst and then don't include them. I realize this makes more work for you on your end. I also can't imagine that would be most or many writers, but we can try to respect those who have that feeling. I SURELY DO NOT expect you to contact each writer to ask for their permission before you publish your round-up.
I look at it like this: Once we hit publish on something, our work and names/mentions are out in the world and it is no longer just ours, lol. We cannot control how it will be digested or shared.
I think, Kathryn, that only because we are in our smaller (seemingly) Notes world, we are in vicinity of each other, so people see your round-up. What if there were no Notes? What if you did that only on your webpage somewhere? Authors would not know you mentioned them.
Your heart is in the right place, Kathryn. You are a giver and a nurturer. We need people who are so generous with their energy and time in this world!
Thank you for that. I can actually see what the writer who was initially concerned was saying if I used her words and didn't make them available to her for free ... my confusion was that I do offer that free access for a month so to me that wasn't crossing a line. And I'm curious where other people land on that.
But ultimately, I agree - once we publish, that work isn't really ours anymore, despite copyright and all of that. My words have been published and cited and misquoted and copied and stolen all over the web and in print publications and I just don't put a lot of energy into worrying about it.
This has all given me a lot of food for thought. I appreciate that my intention comes through a lot of the time and want to do my best to make it as a clear as possible. <3
I am glad I came to read the comments. I’ve been having a bit of a wobble about putting my writing out there so freely so an AI can scrape it. I thought I’d made peace with putting stuff out there for free, but I guess I hadn’t! So I am still going to post and just remind myself of the good that can come from it.
I remember feeling disappointed in being unable to read that writers on writing post -- but I don’t recall seeing a note that I could read it for a seven day free trial. (Now the wording might be there, and I just don’t remember it.) if it was there and my eyes had skipped it, please disregard, but if it isn’t? Maybe beef up that section a bit?
Hm, it should have showed up as an option as soon as you hit the paywall. I'll have to log out and look at that to make sure. Thanks for making me aware of that.
There's a lot to consider with the AI issue. I don't worry about it for myself probably because I have been writing online for nearly twenty years and I know for sure that AI has already scraped me. It's not a battle I'm personally willing to concern myself with but I think it's an important issue anyway. If you don't already know The Muse by Birgitte here on Substack, you might find her thoughts on this helpful - she's got a really in depth perspective writing about it.
Ditto what Leanne said... I read the post I was mentioned in and then hit the paywall but don't recall seeing the 7-day free trial offer. Maybe I was rushed and just missed it? I read it while on a trip with my husband and my chain of thoughts went something like this:
-- OH, look! 🤓 Kathryn tagged me in her post! Yippee.
-- Uh, I can't see what she wrote about what I wrote. 🙁 Darn. That's a bummer.
-- Hmm, I've been meaning to subscribe. Maybe now is the time. 🤔I've got to check my budget first.
And then we had to get going and I haven't yet revisited the post. We're back home and that's when I got yanked into all the discussions this article stimulated... which have been simultaneously helpful and confusing. 😜
I think chat might better be reserved for paid subscribers.
Oh that's interesting. Is that because you would like it to be more private to enhance the safety of sharing in the space?
Free subscribers are happy with posts and notes. If you have more time than working people, chats aren’t a big deal but it might drive more subscribers. I was happiest on Substack before Notes when I only followed 10 favorites who were my favorites long before Substack.
Thanks for the additional thoughts on that. There are so many ways to approach this whole Substack thing!
We’re on overload lol❤️
Love you to the moon Kathryn. But one things to ponder is that people are way too enmeshed with the complexities of their inner world to wanna hear about yours. I enjoy skimming through your roundups but at the end of the day, they may be way too long.
Honestly, I really get you though. I tend to go REALY DEEP with people too. Yet most end up scurrying away at the end which used to upset me terribly.
But here is the good news -- I’m at peace with that having hit 60 earlier this year. For the first time in my life I’m fully acceptant of who I am, who I’m not, who I hope to become in my legacy years. That’s my rap.
Thanks so much for all of that. One of the things I love about aging (I'm 43) is that I get more and more secure in doing what's right for me, being gentle with myself when I make mistakes and need to pivot, and not worrying a lot about the rest.
I'm going to think on what you said about length. I see what I'm doing here as creating a body of work that's all related to a theme (particularly in my roundups related specifically to the topic of art and mental health.) I see it essentially as curating a library of content around that niche that people can turn to at any time, dip in, find what they need at that time, go deeper or not ... I wonder if it would be helpful to others if I found a way to make that clearer. So that people understand that the one specific article isn't really what it's about ... Just thinking aloud here.
Katheryn Vercillo, you are certainly wise beyond your years! Hearing all of these other authors’ voices is enlightening. I look so forward to your Notes each week. It always seems to resonate. I can liken it to traveling when I read this column. It gives me a passport to places of feelings, and ideas, or Art. There’s so much to be gained, in my opinion.
I make greeting cards for populations of people overlooked by Hallmark and everyone else. It’s not a business. It’s not meant to be. I do it by request. It’s how escape my mental entrapment. I have cards for guys that don’t suck, people in wheelchairs, the LGTBQ community, and minorities, when asked by friends. It’s stuff you just can’t find where I live in the Midwest. I’m also making up a few Hannukah cards. My stuff isn’t great, but people like having something to send that represents the recipient a bit better than the Kansas City conglomerate. So that’s my hobby. It keeps me alive.
I don’t know if anyone will ever get any interest out of that. But it gets more interesting as my brain doesn’t cooperate.
I would not personally pull someone's work and then charge them to see it, no. I don't know that it's unethical; I just wouldn't feel good about it. I would, at the very least, ask their permission first and then offer to give them a month's free subscription so they could read it if they liked without paying to read their own work.
If my post were free, I would feel fine about including them without asking, unless they specifically asked me not to.
As for the long lists, I think any list is likely to make some folks feel left out because everyone is going to want to 'make' the list, you know? It's like not being picked in gym or something.
Frequency may be an issue, too. The way Notes works currently, we see a lot of the same posts over and over again (some of us, anyway). And so even a handful of similar posts are going to feel very repetitive super fast.
As for marketing more generally, most writers I know personally really hate it. They hate doing it. They hate not doing it. They hate reading about it. But it's accepted as this onerous thing we 'have' to do unless we are already wealthy, have a teaching appointment, or are content to live as a bohemian artist. You've been very upfront about your intention to make a full-time living doing this newsletter, so I think it is perfectly fair and reasonable for folks to expect that you will be trying to make money through all this. What might be turning people off (without or without their knowledge) is that all of us are in the same kind of bind. There aren't really a lot of 'just' readers on Notes. We're all writers. And we're all trying to do the same things, more or less, which is build or perpetuate a professional writing identity or career. I think it's fine to ask writers to support each other, but it's also important to remember that they need support, too. It's a mutual aid kind of ask--at least on this platform, as it current is. That's how I see it.
Anyway, thank you for being willing to open this up. Everyone was grumbling around 'certain kinds of posts,' and I was getting very lost. I'm sure you will find your way with this and figure out what's right.
Thank you for all of your thoughts. All welcome and appreciated.
I hadn't considered your point that perhaps for paid I should ask first and offer the month in advance. I say at the top of those posts that any writer named gets a month free, but maybe that's not proactive enough. Perhaps what I may do is reduce that paid writing about writing one to a monthly post instead of a weekly one, more highly curated, and then that gives me time to ask the writers I've chosen in advance if it's okay to include them. That's something I'll chew on more.
I think you hit on something really key in your discussion about marketing on Substack in general. I used to feel that way but having been writing for my food online for so many years I've just come to a neutral place with it. But what you said is a problem I see too - that if everyone on here is just trying to get people to pay for their writing then we're kind of in a weird echo chamber. For me, I see it as a place where if people support my writing then I can pay to support the writing of others ... but I'm seeing a lot of people here can't/won't pay at all so then if we have a large percentage of people asking for payment but not paying others then it's not sustainable. I'm not sure what the solution is to that but hope it's a conversation Substack will keep having.
What’s true for me today is that today’s Notes posted exactly on the topic I was going to post on. This may sound odd, and maybe a bit rude to start off with, but I don’t mean to offend, so please just follow me.
I can remember years ago when years ago when suddenly public toilets required payment. That meant anyone without change on hand was denied usage what had been accessible for everyone. The trend didn’t last long, but the element of exclusion to the need to obtain information and even provide expression seems to be getting limited without payment to outlets including network television, and the many news outlets, and artists, and other media that one might have encountered in a public place, which was vital for low income people who wish to remain informed.
I personally feel the walls closing in on me.
I had to buy a new TV. I cannot get network TV without buying subscriptions. I am cut off from my local Cedar Rapids Gazette and most all other newspapers without making a trip to spend the entire day at the library. I have one newspaper purchase. A yearly subscription to the New York Times fot $99.
A $99 annual subscription is a huge investment for me to get information. I live in a facility. My monthly income is a limited $50 a month. That’s right, $50 a month for all of my clothing, toiletries, shoes, outerwear, and entertainment. What is left for what I crave… information?
Information is what I need to inform myself and others, especially because policy in Washington and Des Moines affects my quality of life. I need to get the word out, but how can I do that if I can’t afford to subscribe to these important outlets of direct, unbiased reporting? And as far as myself, I appreciate having the opportunity to share my thoughts with a greater audience, for whatever it’s worth.
I have my own Substack blog. It has a low readership. But having the ability to post on notes of others helps to get the message out.
I can’t pay $25, or $10 a month here, or even annually, to several outlets. I still get stuck with medical bills that insurance doesn’t cover. I have to find creative ways to pay for them when they pop up. I had to default on my credit cards which still has me feel like vomiting, because that’s not who I am, but that’s what I was forced into.
I realize everyone needs income too. I don’t know the perfect answer. I’m feeling iced out of society, of what was free, what was normal, and what was predictable. I think everyone does.
Hugs around the difficulty of that. I've been there and understand that side of things.
I'm not really sure what the solution is. On the one hand, I'd love all ideas and information to be free for others and on the other hand I work really hard full-time at curating and expressing my ideas and that should be paid for by someone - but who? What I wish is that the society itself was structured differently and this wasn't an issue but that's not likely to change anytime soon.
I know that Emma Gannon is an example of someone whose Substack is primarily for paid subscribers but she offers a handful of free subscriptions to people who truly can't afford it. That could be one model I'd use. And Margaret Atwood mentioned that she doesn't need the income so all her paid subscriptions get donated to a charity. I would love to have a huge Substack that supports me financially and that people use the options of "gift a subscription" and "donate a subscription" to make some free subscriptions available to low-income creatives. I'm not there yet but I'm trying to be. <3
Hi! I have a really simple reflection within this... Do YOU. Your ideas and ways of sharing are coming from your heart (that is honestly so very obvious). The folks who resonate with you and FEEL the GIFTS moving through your offerings will willingly be present and participate. Its a bummer that folks are taking personally the creative choices and community building efforts that you are exploring. THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT, meant to be playful, flexible and exploratory. Creativity and bringing our GIFTS as offerings is meant to reveal some level of differentiation. Meaning certain people will feel the resonance and lean IN while others will feel a resistance and shift away. IM NOT FOR EVERYONE. The way I share and create doesn't land for everyone. The way I invite people INTO my offerings is actually what helps the aligned folks locate me. What I feel deeply excited to discuss and reflect with, doesn't resonate with a lot of people. That is why I tag folks in my Notes - because I want to LISTEN with their thoughts on something that I am learning and exploring. I want to enrich my perspective and create a space where wisdom can be planted. I don't see any issue with tagging in Notes. As humans we naturally tend to gather with folks that share common threads of interest and curiosity to explore together. I am also here to cultivate a healthy bountiful harvest with my GIFTS. I desire to do that my very own way. I will craft that path as I go, adapt and shift as my heart sees fit and trust my instincts about what FEELS aligned for me. All that to say - stay true to your journey. You KNOW what is best for your creative VOICE. You know where your intentions are birthed from. Do it YOUR UNIQUE WAY.
Thank you. I value this. Ultimately I will do me ... I think what happened here was that the concerns hit a nerve that made me realize "okay, if I'm so bothered by this then it might mean there's something I'm doing that's out of alignment with what's true for me" and I opened it up to discussion to get clearer on that for myself.
I really really love this part of what you said: "THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT, meant to be playful, flexible and exploratory."
I am going to write that out and put it on my desk as a reminder.
I love that you have embraced this moment as a self reflective invitation, listening WITH your very own integrity. Our attunements arrive in mysterious ways!! I FEEL you are wonderful and generous and I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to JOIN IN.
Thanks for being part of my community here. You always share such positivity. <3
Kathryn,
I’m going to be frank here. I am a reader and half hearted wannabe writer who stumbled on to Substack well into her retirement years. I still cannot distinguish between posts, restocks, notes, and chat. I enjoy most of what I read from those I follow and those I subscribe to and those I paid to subscribe to. It was a little easier to distinguish before the last app update removed the Notes icon from the bottom. I’m still trying to determine if non-writing readers are welcome here as I see so many posts that seem to be writers addressing writers. It does seem that if this is meant to provide income to writers that readers need to be a substantial portion of the audience. I like observing the writer to writer posts and gaining some insight into the world of a writer so I’ll probably stay whether I’m welcome or not-I’m a superior grade lurker. All that being said (in a most helter skelter manner I might add), my question would have to be can a writer make money on Substack directing their material only to other writers or would it be better to aim at the non-writer or reader population? (Sorry for the randomness).
That makes perfect sense. I think it hits on a huge problem of Substack. If we're all here to have people read our writing but we aren't reading other people's writing (and particularly if we won't pay to read other people's writing) then it seems like the whole model is unsustainable.
I certainly value there being "just readers" and want lots of them to feel welcome to the community.
And I think this identifies a big problem with Notes. I think the whole conversation that has been generated around this is really asking "what's Notes for?" Is it for writers to support one another? Is it for readers to see whose writing? Is it something else? I think we don't know the answer to that and haven't come to an agreement ... and maybe we all want to use it for something different which is okay too.
To that end, I'm questioning whether/how I want to use Notes at all. It's so confusing!!
Thank you for being here. I love the feedback.
Hi Kathryn. I was drawn here from Notes, by the way. :) My 2 pennies.
1. That you're well meaning in all this is clear.
2. Don't feel bad or apologize for wanting to earn a living from your writing. People like things for free. I like things for free. Often people can't afford things. I often can't afford things. But the idea that writers shouldn't earn from their work just as anyone else wants to is I'll informed at best.
3. About the use of other writers' words, there already exist fair use rights standards. If you quote in limited amounts to analyze and comment upon, no permission need be sought. If you quote more extensively, you should seek permission. If you quote in commercial use (to make money yourself) that's going to be more problematic, especially if the original author did not. I myself would object in that latter instance, without permission. But I'm not a lawyer. Here's the resource: https://www.copyright.gov/about/
Thank you for that reminder. It's been a while since I reviewed Fair Use and that's something to think about as I move forward.
At this point, I'm leaning towards either not charging for roundups, not doing roundups, or doing them less frequently and charging for them but getting permission from the writers before publication. We'll see ...
Glad you're here. Thanks for sharing thoughts.
It’s not that I don’t agree that writers should be paid for their work. The problem is that I’m restricted by law to earning income because of the type of assistance I require to keep the kind of help that I need. I agree in free speech, and in capitalism.
I never thought I would find myself in an underclass. My POV has changed to some degree because I experience a degree of what truly needy people do.
I’ve found myself hoarding things that I would have otherwise donated to a charity, or homeless shelter, fearing I may need them myself in the future because I fear insecurity in whatever may come. For now I’m living in an assisted living facility. It’s my long-term home, and a world apart. Yet I remain hopeful.
Yes, that's a really tough thing and something that I also understand as someone with chronic illness who is often on limited income in a very expensive city. It's not quite the same situation but I've definitely had my financial challenges as a result. The problem isn't with the individuals who aren't making enough money to pay - it's with the whole system that's creating this issue for so many!!
Exactly! We are punished for being chronically ill! My assisted living facility says I am short every month on my income, thus living on $50. The government program I’m on doesn’t allow me to generate income. I’m absolutely over the barrel
I needed a new TV. I love it except I couldn’t watch PBS without a Passport subscription of $60. I initially subscribed to one Substack author, not understanding that there would be many to pay. I dropped my New York Times electronic subscription for the coming year in order to buy a new jacket. I haven’t taken the tags as of yet. Debating… I crave information. I keep trying on the jacket. Damn.
This must seem like utter stupidity from an onlooker.
Big hugs. I understand how hard this is. <3
I think from the outside it seems petty. From my perspective, I have to choose the few things that I’m going to have. And I still have to put gas in my car. So I’m taking things to consignment that I no longer need. My vehicle is my one escape from this place.
I don’t mean to beat a dead horse. I just don’t think the wider public generally understands having to live a restricted lifestyle. And I live much better than most people here.
I’ve gone completely off topic. I don’t mean to hijack your discussions, which have brought needed diverse views to the surface.
Maybe Substack will not, in the end, be a sustainable outlet for me. I will have to be okay with that. I will need to be satisfied with what I can access and let it lie there.
I have a lot of family and friends particularly in the disability and chronic illness communities who have had to constantly go without many things they really need, including medication, because of cost. It's a huge systemic issue that I would love to see be very different.
Regarding the differing opinions on your roundups, I just want to say that it has been a goal of mine to make your list once I get brave and start writing. I appreciate the thought (and heart) that you are putting into this.
Aw hugs, I've just subscribed so I can watch what you're doing!
I do hope you get brave. Every voice is unique and valuable including yours!!
There's so much here. First, I'm completely honored anytime you reflect on something I wrote and include it in your links. That's the kind of discussion I like to have with folks and the whole point for me of writing - that others reflect on it and incorporate it as their own. As a a photographer, I made peace a long time ago with the fact that people were going to steal my photos and use them as their own no matter what safeguards I tried to put in place. With writing and stories I think hey, the best stories are the ones people have told and retold and anyway is anything I'm saying really completely unique? Isn't it all a reflection on what I've taken in, through various means?
I'd add to that - you are a professional writer! I'm still an aspiring professional in the writing/essay world (I have a day job) and every time a professional writer finds value in my work I'm honored. I hope/think I will always be. Why am I not a subscriber? It's simple really - I'm subscribed to way too many things. When I started out here on Substack I subscribed to everyone who subscribed to me plus everything I was interested in and did a lot of paid subscriptions. I finally set a budget for two reasons - 1) I can't read everything. I can't come close to reading everything. I've found I don't read really long posts very often because, well, time and attention. Not for lack of desire. So I keep a list of things I'd like to subscribe to and ever couple months I re-evaluate it. I'm also happy to trade photos for subscriptions, though so far no one has been interested in that. Or maybe they don't know. Or maybe I don't make it easy enough to access the photos. Most people use the low cost photos from various photo sites but it is hard to make any money doing that and I just don't have time to try and maintain such a thing. Plus they have requirements for what kind of camera you should have and a bunch of other stuff - and my photos don't tend towards the very popular styles for such things.
As to putting it behind a paywall - again, I felt like its as just an honor and I didn't even know about your ways of being able to read it. I didn't really look! You have a right to make a living and my work is out there in the public domain - and geez, how can this be detrimental? I see it as expanding my audience. I guess others see it different.
Regarding Notes (and chat) - I just don't have time. I don't spend much time on social media for this reason. I continue to post on Facebook because I have a large group there who have followed me a long time. I continue to post on Instagram because it's easy to post what I posted on FB and I have a few dear friends who are only on instagram. I used to post on twitter in the pre-Musk days because there was a nice community of nature photographers but honestly I never had time and I haven't missed it (and most of them have moved to other platforms I understand). Plus I just can't support Musk. I keep thinking I *should* be doing something on notes and chat and I feel guilty for the people who are regularly posting my stuff, like I should be doing it in return, but it's more energy than I have to give at the moment.
As to paid vs free. Oof. I think it's the wild Wild West right now and everyone should follow their gut. I totally respect every method that people have chosen. Actually I'm watching them all with curiosity. I can't figure it out so I keep trying different things. (Keeping in mind I do this part time.) Sometimes it doesn't make people happy. Ok. I always remember the Brene Brown quote which was something like "Don't take feedback from someone who is not willing to be in the arena." I take that to mean a similar arena to yours. And even then, everyone has an opinion and it's usually one that justifies their own choices. I didn't like the "discount" thing - until I figured out Substack wouldn't let me go below $30 and I wanted to see what happened if I did. So you know. (I also learned the hard way that someone could cost me more than they paid, when someone auto renewed and then filed it as fraud with their credit card. On top of the refund and the fees for both the transaction and the refund, Stripe charged me $15. Oof. Tried to email the person directly but no response. People just don't really think about who pays for that stuff, it's so easy to hit the button anonymously. But I digress.)
I think you have an audience. When I have time to read it, I love it. It just might not be the thing I'm paying for right now but that doesn't mean I don't see the value!
Last note - I'm not feeling well today either. I didn't sleep last night which I find so frustrating because I've done sooooooooo many things to try and sleep better. I asked a similar question to this about something else I was having trouble befriending to Tara Brach and her answer - which I've now heard her give to others as well - was can you bring compassion to the part of you that doesn't want to befriend it? Can you bring compassion to the part that is battling and fighting rather than telling it to stand down? (Hope that makes sense - it's hard to try and pass along a wise teaching because I'm not that level of teacher of course! and PS, I love every Tara Brach meditation and they are free (or donate what you can) on her website.)
Your last section resonated for me. I often lose sleep over whether I did something wrong or not. It's something I find easy to bring compassion to others for - just the fact that you're struggling with it means you're a caring person. AND. Oof, everyone has an opinion and sometimes the way something is received is just not like we intended because every receiver is looking through a different lens. There's no way around that. I felt guilty when I saw the person had auto-renewed and hadn't been opening my posts. But there's not much I can do other than reaching out by email and when I got no response I finally let it go.
Hope you got some rest. Hope I get some too!
I should also add - if I am ever fortunate enough to be able to make a living out here, I do intend to pay it forward to other writers I like. I do some of that already - I still pay more in subscriptions than I'm taking in - but obviously we all have to put food on the table. And we should be able to!
Thank you for all of this. I need to take some offline time and put food in my body but I saw your response come through and wanted to at least acknowledge it. Really appreciate all the thoughts and will come back to respond more later. 💙💙
Thanks again for the really thoughtful in-depth response. Same here in terms of making peace with that people will steal my stuff online and use it however they want ... we're all at different stages and sides of that and that's okay but for me it's never been worth the hassle to track people down and do the "take it down" back and forth. What's meant to thrive will and that's enough for me, personally. But I do want to respect how I use other people's work and it was concerning enough to me to bring it up for varied perspectives which I've really appreciated receiving here.
Quickly on a few other things before I head back offline to do my homework ...
I didn't realize that you offer your photos, which I think is a great thing to do in exchange for a subscription. I am pondering options for bartering and if that's something I want to do at all. I hope more people see that you're doing that.
I think putting a budget on what you can pay to subscribe to makes perfect sense. I do the same and re-evaluate periodically.
I didn't realize that there could be problems like you said of the whole auto-renew, fraud, Stripe issue and that's concerning! I haven't been on here long enough for people to hit the auto-renew so that's something for me to be aware of when that time approaches.
And finally, just thanks for being here. I love your posts, your photos, and am grateful for these thoughts. I am resonating with that Tara Brach meditation and I'm bringing compassion and gentleness to myself and to everyone else in this conversation.
<3 <3
Reg Notes (disclaimer: I'm a total newbie to Substack, I didn't set up my publications/newsletter here yet): I discovered everyone I follow and/or subscribed to (including paid subscriptions) via Notes. Again, as of now, I don't know any other way to discover MY writers here other than Notes, because recommendations and explore seem very algorithmic-related aka repeating what social media platforms are doing: pushing already popular writers. And this is not what I came here for.
PS: thank you for the work and effort you're putting into your Substack!
Agree that Notes seems to be one of the best ways to discover other people here so far. One thing I would love to see improved here is the search function... I would love to search for topics that interest me and find the people writing about them but the search functionality is just that great yet.
Kathryn, when I first read the post where you talked about having negative experience on Substack, I was taken aback. I was tagged by you (and thanked you for it!) and more broadly, have found your writing to be so supportive of other people, I couldn't imagine what happened.
Now that I have read your description of the complaints, I am thinking “whaaa?”
I think everything that I have read by you has been above reproach. Which is not to say that there will always be naysayers I guess.
I think that you should structure your work how you want to and choose carefully about how much to engage with those who may not be coming from a laudable place.
I know that I am going to be posting some things that won’t be palatable to everyone, but my whole point of being here is to write the things I have wanted/needed to say and have control over my message.
The other thing that strikes me is that people with disabilities are constantly being asked to work for free. Writing is work (at least it is if you’re doing it right). You have so many options for access to your work; I don't think you should feel guilty about anything. 💐
Thank you. It helps to hear this point of view and it's so true that people with disabilities / chronic illness/ etc are often expected to work for free ... or to be grateful when they get a little bit ... which is not okay. It's tough, right, because they're also the ones on limited income who can't pay to support subscriptions ... that's why I try to offer a lot of discounts and affordability and free options. I think we're all trying to figure out this model and it's tricky but it's a place for conversation and growth. <3
Thanks for being here. <3